Matchday thread - Toon v Cherries

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Expand view Topic review: Matchday thread - Toon v Cherries

Re: Matchday thread - Toon v Cherries

by Remember Colo » Tue Feb 20, 2024 2:26 pm

Agree on all the discussion. And one final point on the Burn and Botman point - agree that Botman has been caught out a few times lately, and I don't know if he's lost a step since his injury, but it only further highlights why the LB needed next to him right now has to have more pace than Burn to cover for him. If anyone gets in behind Sven, you can be absolutely sure BDB won't be making a last ditch sprint to save him.

Re: Matchday thread - Toon v Cherries

by Colback's Orange Tufts » Tue Feb 20, 2024 8:27 am

I agree with TJR and Sanchino's points. I feel you can build a good side with limited players like Longstaff, but it is fragile. Take out one or two pieces and it falls apart. Same with Burn

Re: Matchday thread - Toon v Cherries

by Sanchino » Mon Feb 19, 2024 7:19 pm

TJR wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2024 10:48 am
The problem with the Burn selection is he's the only LB option that allows us to play Trippier in a more advanced role. In possession we set up with 3 players back, Schar, Botman and Burn playing as a back 3 with Trippier essentially a winger. Livramento isn't disciplined enough to play the Burn role, he's a player better suited to playing the Trippier role. It isn't just as straight forward as taking Burn out and putting Livramento in, we'd have to change our entire tactical set up and formation. We'd also have to stifle Trippier who's our most creative player. If we had a proper defensive midfielder who could drop in and form a back 3 when in possession it would be fine to have two attacking full backs but we don't have that option.

Burn is suffering because of the injuries as well, Miley doesn't offer the same protection on the left of the midfield as Joelinton or Willock. Also Pope is a massive miss. We play a high line which we normally get away with because Pope's starting position is high, he reads the game incredibly well and he's quick. Bar the red card against Liverpool he's done that sweeper keeper role perfectly. Dubravka isn't that sort of goalkeeper and our slow defence are getting killed by the ball in behind or over the top, especially on the left.

It's not just Burn either, Botman is also struggling with the same issue. He was worse than Burn yesterday and has been really struggling the past few weeks.

The midfield is the biggest issue, Miley and Longstaff aren't top half Premier League players. I think Miley will be but not yet and he shouldn't be playing as regularly as he is at this stage in his career but he has to because of the injury crisis. To have Joelinton, Willock, Tonali and Anderson all out long term is incredibly unlucky. I'm sure Howe would change the midfield if he could but he can't, those 3 playing are the only 3 available. The balance is all wrong in there and they're far too weak. We can't control games with that midfield 3 but there aren't any other options.
This. Two excellent points. Overall good read. <applause>

Miley's only 17 and is definitely going to be a top quality (potential top 6 Prem quality) in the next 5 years but now he's still raw and learning. Longstaff is entering his peak years (26 now) and I don't know if he will ever be a top half (top 6) quality midfielder. Bruno and Big Joe, Willock and Tonali have all shown that quality that's needed to be that type of midfielder and even Anderson you could say has that potential similar to Miley. But yes we need a midfield enforcer (Kante/Makalele/peak Tiote style) to cover our backline. There's also a lot of players that need to be moved on.. great too see Ritchie (past it now at 34) score but respectfully he shouldn't be anywhere near the first team let alone coming on to save us! Dummet too.. If we can raise funds from the likes of Wilson, Murphy, Miggy etc so we can genuinely get 3 quality forwards who will help us challenge for top 4 consistently I wouldn't be against it. We need to build the team around the ''world class'' top four quality we do have already such as Botman, Bruno, Gordon, Isak. Everyone else is replaceable / upgradeable. Trippier as much as he is a good right-back who can assist as shown this season he's getting on a bit and Tino is the future I feel so next season could be the breakout season were he overtakes the RB position IF we get a competent and attacking LB because as we all know it's looking unlikely we're going to keep Hall and Targett is decent when fit but is he top 6 quality or a LB who will take us to the next level? I don't think so.

I'll allow Howe to stay for another season and see what the summer holds unless we drastically go downhill in the league (finish outside the top 10) and get knocked out in the FA Cup by Blackburn. If he persists with Burn until it's too late (were the season is effectively over and we don't have nothing to play for) I will seriously consider he is not the man for the job (long-term). How are we only getting 2 points against Luton, Forest and Bournmouth at home? Just not good enough and that's down to Howe and his choices n' stubbornness. <ok>

Re: Matchday thread - Toon v Cherries

by Don Sholeone » Mon Feb 19, 2024 6:28 pm

Maybe we need an absolute pasting to get fingers pulled out. I dunno.

Re: Matchday thread - Toon v Cherries

by Sanchino » Mon Feb 19, 2024 2:42 pm

Bodacious Benny wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2024 4:34 pm
Remember Colo wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2024 4:32 pm
It's like Dan's been told to close nobody down because he'll otherwise get beat for pace, thereby giving up shots and passes.

If you have to sub a defender this many weeks in a row, maybe change the starting XI.
It’s absolutely laughable.

I like Howe, but he has f***ed up big time in the last 4-5 games by continuing to play Burn at LB.
This. Getting ridiculous now. Just start Tino. Especially against Arsenal now who have the most skilful, technically gifted and fast wingers in Saka & Marteneli if not Arenal are gonna have a filed day and tear us a new one.. wouldn't be surprised if they scored over 4+ goals with the way we're defending at the moment, they will target that left-hand side all day long. <disgrace> <erk>

Re: Matchday thread - Toon v Cherries

by bodacious benny » Mon Feb 19, 2024 12:00 pm

Valentino's fast feet wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2024 11:16 am
Bodacious Benny wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2024 9:52 pm


I’m still happy with Howe, but I think how he approaches the run in is pretty important going forward. Realistically the highest we can hope to finish is 7th. If he continues the way he has been then I’ll lose some confidence. How bad can Hall be in training if he’s not even close to getting minutes in his preferred position? Let alone Tino who we know can play LB.

I get the argument that midfield isn’t helping and it’s not all Burns fault (which is true), but such a glaring deficiency needs sorting. Saka v our left hand side next weekend…
To be fair isn't his preferred position CM? Converted to a left back during Chelsea's injury crisis, at least he got minutes then haha. Point still stands mind, as he's not even getting minutes in the midfield. I strongly feel it's to do with the buy clause in his loan contract, minutes played etc.
Ah right, not sure tbf! I know when we signed him there was talk that with Tino and Hall we could potentially have a right full back and left full back that could be England's starters in those positions one day.

If there's any way out of the deal you really can't see the club wanting to cough up £30m in summer...

Re: Matchday thread - Toon v Cherries

by Valentino's fast feet » Mon Feb 19, 2024 11:16 am

Bodacious Benny wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2024 9:52 pm
Don Sholeone wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2024 9:02 pm
As a manager looking to take us forward he needs to show adaptability and show less of a one dimensional style. So far he's failed at every turn through the injuries and fixture congestion. It's a great system for us if we can keep the same 11 players at 100% form and fitness for 50+ games per season.
I’m still happy with Howe, but I think how he approaches the run in is pretty important going forward. Realistically the highest we can hope to finish is 7th. If he continues the way he has been then I’ll lose some confidence. How bad can Hall be in training if he’s not even close to getting minutes in his preferred position? Let alone Tino who we know can play LB.

I get the argument that midfield isn’t helping and it’s not all Burns fault (which is true), but such a glaring deficiency needs sorting. Saka v our left hand side next weekend…
To be fair isn't his preferred position CM? Converted to a left back during Chelsea's injury crisis, at least he got minutes then haha. Point still stands mind, as he's not even getting minutes in the midfield. I strongly feel it's to do with the buy clause in his loan contract, minutes played etc.

Re: Matchday thread - Toon v Cherries

by Don Sholeone » Mon Feb 19, 2024 9:03 am

I'm not saying hes bad, he's a very good manager, but for where we want to be he's not quite it. If he tried something different and failed I'd have had more faith in him being able to get to where we need him as a manager going forward. But he's literally tried nothing and for me that's whats made my mind up on him

Re: Matchday thread - Toon v Cherries

by originallad » Mon Feb 19, 2024 8:33 am

Bodacious Benny wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2024 9:52 pm
Don Sholeone wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2024 9:02 pm
As a manager looking to take us forward he needs to show adaptability and show less of a one dimensional style. So far he's failed at every turn through the injuries and fixture congestion. It's a great system for us if we can keep the same 11 players at 100% form and fitness for 50+ games per season.
I’m still happy with Howe, but I think how he approaches the run in is pretty important going forward. Realistically the highest we can hope to finish is 7th. If he continues the way he has been then I’ll lose some confidence. How bad can Hall be in training if he’s not even close to getting minutes in his preferred position? Let alone Tino who we know can play LB.

Saka v our left hand side next weekend…
Oh God that's going to be grim!

Re: Matchday thread - Toon v Cherries

by bodacious benny » Sun Feb 18, 2024 9:52 pm

Don Sholeone wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2024 9:02 pm
As a manager looking to take us forward he needs to show adaptability and show less of a one dimensional style. So far he's failed at every turn through the injuries and fixture congestion. It's a great system for us if we can keep the same 11 players at 100% form and fitness for 50+ games per season.
I’m still happy with Howe, but I think how he approaches the run in is pretty important going forward. Realistically the highest we can hope to finish is 7th. If he continues the way he has been then I’ll lose some confidence. How bad can Hall be in training if he’s not even close to getting minutes in his preferred position? Let alone Tino who we know can play LB.

I get the argument that midfield isn’t helping and it’s not all Burns fault (which is true), but such a glaring deficiency needs sorting. Saka v our left hand side next weekend…

Re: Matchday thread - Toon v Cherries

by Don Sholeone » Sun Feb 18, 2024 9:02 pm

As a manager looking to take us forward he needs to show adaptability and show less of a one dimensional style. So far he's failed at every turn through the injuries and fixture congestion. It's a great system for us if we can keep the same 11 players at 100% form and fitness for 50+ games per season.

Re: Matchday thread - Toon v Cherries

by bodacious benny » Sun Feb 18, 2024 7:42 pm

beatski wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2024 7:26 pm
I'd argue that our entire tactical setup and formation isnt working right now (as the players required to play it effectively are injured, for the reasons mentioned above) so it needs to be changed. If we have to stifle trippier to gain some sort of functioning defence then so be it, but you can't concede goals at the rate we are at the minute (to the teams we have) and do nothing to change it
Agreed.

Yes maybe this method helps trippier, but surely it’s now costing us more points than it’s gaining us?

We got 2 points from Forest, Luton and Bournemouth at home. I’m pretty sure if we’d changed things and stopped the Burn horror show then we could have won at least one of those games and got 3 points minimum!

Re: Matchday thread - Toon v Cherries

by beatski » Sun Feb 18, 2024 7:26 pm

I'd argue that our entire tactical setup and formation isnt working right now (as the players required to play it effectively are injured, for the reasons mentioned above) so it needs to be changed. If we have to stifle trippier to gain some sort of functioning defence then so be it, but you can't concede goals at the rate we are at the minute (to the teams we have) and do nothing to change it

Re: Matchday thread - Toon v Cherries

by TJR » Sun Feb 18, 2024 10:48 am

The problem with the Burn selection is he's the only LB option that allows us to play Trippier in a more advanced role. In possession we set up with 3 players back, Schar, Botman and Burn playing as a back 3 with Trippier essentially a winger. Livramento isn't disciplined enough to play the Burn role, he's a player better suited to playing the Trippier role. It isn't just as straight forward as taking Burn out and putting Livramento in, we'd have to change our entire tactical set up and formation. We'd also have to stifle Trippier who's our most creative player. If we had a proper defensive midfielder who could drop in and form a back 3 when in possession it would be fine to have two attacking full backs but we don't have that option.

Burn is suffering because of the injuries as well, Miley doesn't offer the same protection on the left of the midfield as Joelinton or Willock. Also Pope is a massive miss. We play a high line which we normally get away with because Pope's starting position is high, he reads the game incredibly well and he's quick. Bar the red card against Liverpool he's done that sweeper keeper role perfectly. Dubravka isn't that sort of goalkeeper and our slow defence are getting killed by the ball in behind or over the top, especially on the left.

It's not just Burn either, Botman is also struggling with the same issue. He was worse than Burn yesterday and has been really struggling the past few weeks.

The midfield is the biggest issue, Miley and Longstaff aren't top half Premier League players. I think Miley will be but not yet and he shouldn't be playing as regularly as he is at this stage in his career but he has to because of the injury crisis. To have Joelinton, Willock, Tonali and Anderson all out long term is incredibly unlucky. I'm sure Howe would change the midfield if he could but he can't, those 3 playing are the only 3 available. The balance is all wrong in there and they're far too weak. We can't control games with that midfield 3 but there aren't any other options.

Re: Matchday thread - Toon v Cherries

by jpg » Sat Feb 17, 2024 7:24 pm

This Burn thing is such a weird hill for Howe to die on. Squad has been decimated by injuries so why add more scrutiny?

Re: Matchday thread - Toon v Cherries

by bodacious benny » Sat Feb 17, 2024 6:37 pm

Don Sholeone wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2024 6:14 pm
Bodacious Benny wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2024 6:06 pm
In howe’s defence, we don’t actually have a CL squad yet.

We’re not even close to having the quality across the squad that Man C, Arsenal, Liverpool and even that Man U, Chelsea and Spurs can call on.
But we have the team and squad to be beating Bournemouth and Luton, we shouldn't be dropping 10 points to these teams, in both cases we were extremely lucky that they didn't both do the double over us.
Without a doubt, I more meant in defence of him from fans who say we should be challenging for top 4 automatically just because we just hung on to 4th last season.

Re: Matchday thread - Toon v Cherries

by Don Sholeone » Sat Feb 17, 2024 6:14 pm

Bodacious Benny wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2024 6:06 pm
In howe’s defence, we don’t actually have a CL squad yet.

We’re not even close to having the quality across the squad that Man C, Arsenal, Liverpool and even that Man U, Chelsea and Spurs can call on.
But we have the team and squad to be beating Bournemouth and Luton, we shouldn't be dropping 10 points to these teams, in both cases we were extremely lucky that they didn't both do the double over us.

Re: Matchday thread - Toon v Cherries

by bodacious benny » Sat Feb 17, 2024 6:06 pm

In howe’s defence, we don’t actually have a CL squad yet.

We’re not even close to having the quality across the squad that Man C, Arsenal, Liverpool and even that Man U, Chelsea and Spurs can call on.

Re: Matchday thread - Toon v Cherries

by Don Sholeone » Sat Feb 17, 2024 5:53 pm

I'll say again, Howe isn't good enough to finish consistently in the top 4, if the aim is to be a regular in the Champions League then he has to be replaced in the summer. No I don't know who will replace him I don't run a football clubs nor carry around a database of suitable managers, but what I do know is the last 4-5 months isnt good enough and it clearly isn't working. He's got his favourites back, the fixtures have thinned out and it's still the same old s****, the excuses are running out fast.

Re: Matchday thread - Toon v Cherries

by bodacious benny » Sat Feb 17, 2024 5:22 pm

seaside nipper wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2024 5:16 pm
We seem to be setting up almost as if we are looking to create problems for ourselves.
The weak midfield and the imbalance at the back has me utterly bewildered now.
It’s like we know we should set up better , but we won’t !
I’m now for the first time thinking we clearly massively over achieved last season , we pressed and were relentless, this season injuries have caused an issue undoubtedly, but now we’ve been sussed by everyone and it’s like we cannot react tactically, its like we have no plan B.
I’m scunnert !!
I think most fans will admit we overachieved last season. Yes we did amazingly well, but were massively helped by Liverpool in particular having a really poor start to the season. The squad as it was definitely wasn’t the fourth best in the league but we rode a wave. Credit to everyone involved, but it was an overachievement for sure.

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