The Death Penalty

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biggeordiedave
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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by biggeordiedave » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:54 am

Cisse's Overheating Torso wrote:As a debator, just gonna do my standard rebuttal here. Murder is seldom a well thought through act, you don't have a logical actor. It's either someone who never thinks they will get caught, doesn't care or is so passionate in the moment they don't think of consequences. So Capital Punishment is zero deterrent to those people.

And miscarriages of justice happen, CP means we can never get those people justice
100% this. It's medieval and has absolutely no place in modern society.
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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by overseasTOON » Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:50 pm

I'm with Chris Waddle on this one. There should never have been a death pelanty.

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Bodacious Benny » Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:00 pm

fatbastardvegetarian wrote:
Cisse's Overheating Torso wrote:As a debator, just gonna do my standard rebuttal here. Murder is seldom a well thought through act, you don't have a logical actor. It's either someone who never thinks they will get caught, doesn't care or is so passionate in the moment they don't think of consequences. So Capital Punishment is zero deterrent to those people.

And miscarriages of justice happen, CP means we can never get those people justice
100% this. It's medieval and has absolutely no place in modern society.
Working on the argument that people are going to commit murder anyway, and nothing will deter them from it, I don't care if capital punishment deters or not. It does have a place in modern society, in an ideal world I'd let the victims family decide. If they want 'revenge' then that's their call. It's exactly what I'd want done to anyone that murdered any of my family. If that makes be medieval then I'm fine with that. Those that want to occupy the moral high ground could do so if they wanted, those that want revenge could do what they want. The murdered has sacrificed any human rights they previously had by murdering another person. They get no say.
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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Colback's Orange Tufts » Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:36 pm

Bodacious Benny wrote:
fatbastardvegetarian wrote:
100% this. It's medieval and has absolutely no place in modern society.
Working on the argument that people are going to commit murder anyway, and nothing will deter them from it, I don't care if capital punishment deters or not. It does have a place in modern society, in an ideal world I'd let the victims family decide. If they want 'revenge' then that's their call. It's exactly what I'd want done to anyone that murdered any of my family. If that makes be medieval then I'm fine with that. Those that want to occupy the moral high ground could do so if they wanted, those that want revenge could do what they want. The murdered has sacrificed any human rights they previously had by murdering another person. They get no say.
I'm not sure the immediately in suffering are best placed to make the decision though. Our system is based on tariff for punishment, judicial review and case law. Not what the victim wants.
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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Bodacious Benny » Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:48 pm

Cisse's Overheating Torso wrote:
Bodacious Benny wrote:
Working on the argument that people are going to commit murder anyway, and nothing will deter them from it, I don't care if capital punishment deters or not. It does have a place in modern society, in an ideal world I'd let the victims family decide. If they want 'revenge' then that's their call. It's exactly what I'd want done to anyone that murdered any of my family. If that makes be medieval then I'm fine with that. Those that want to occupy the moral high ground could do so if they wanted, those that want revenge could do what they want. The murdered has sacrificed any human rights they previously had by murdering another person. They get no say.
I'm not sure the immediately in suffering are best placed to make the decision though. Our system is based on tariff for punishment, judicial review and case law. Not what the victim wants.
Due time would have to pass before the victims family makes their decision in this hypothetical situation. If they preferred the courts to decide a fitting punishment that's also their call. Sadly in this country the tariff for punishment is a farce.
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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by skalpel » Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:49 pm

This is exactly why impartial judiciary systems exist: to remove the decision from the emotionally charged victims and place it into objective hands who will pass a fair decision based on facts and reasoning. If Bob Smith's daughter is raped and murdered, of course Bob Smith is going to want to tear the perpetrator to pieces with his bare hands. But a civilised society is not based on retribution driven by rampant emotion, it is built on reason. Giving victims the choice over whether to thumbs-up or thumbs-down an execution is not a smart manner in which to maintain civil order.

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Bodacious Benny » Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:58 pm

skalpel wrote:This is exactly why impartial judiciary systems exist: to remove the decision from the emotionally charged victims and place it into objective hands who will pass a fair decision based on facts and reasoning. If Bob Smith's daughter is raped and murdered, of course Bob Smith is going to want to tear the perpetrator to pieces with his bare hands. But a civilised society is not based on retribution driven by rampant emotion, it is built on reason. Giving victims the choice over whether to thumbs-up or thumbs-down an execution is not a smart manner in which to maintain civil order.
No. The court decided the persons guilt of course. The victims family, if they wish, decide the punishment.
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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Colback's Orange Tufts » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:05 pm

Bodacious Benny wrote:
skalpel wrote:This is exactly why impartial judiciary systems exist: to remove the decision from the emotionally charged victims and place it into objective hands who will pass a fair decision based on facts and reasoning. If Bob Smith's daughter is raped and murdered, of course Bob Smith is going to want to tear the perpetrator to pieces with his bare hands. But a civilised society is not based on retribution driven by rampant emotion, it is built on reason. Giving victims the choice over whether to thumbs-up or thumbs-down an execution is not a smart manner in which to maintain civil order.
No. The court decided the persons guilt of course. The victims family, if they wish, decide the punishment.
For all crimes though, cos if you do that every criminal is going to be doing life
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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by skalpel » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:06 pm

Yeah, I was referring to sentencing. As I say, giving an emotionally charged victim the ability to have somebody killed as revenge is not a sensible way to maintain civil order.

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Cal » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:08 pm

Who sets the limits on what punishment is allowed in this system? What if I am so distressed by someone stealing my TV that I demand he's put to death?

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Bodacious Benny » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:10 pm

Cal wrote:Who sets the limits on what punishment is allowed in this system? What if I am so distressed by someone stealing my TV that I demand he's put to death?
For stealing a mans TV death should be the minimum punishment <fist>
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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Donkey Toon » Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:26 pm

The police and judiciary are far from perfect and make mistakes. They are also not free from corruption.

That means that any country with a death penalty is guaranteed to have at least once put an innocent person to death for a crime they did not commit.

So as far as i'm concerned you can throw out any other factor. There is no way I could ever support a system which can impose such an irreversibly harsh penalty on an innocent. It is barbaric.

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by PTAO? » Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:37 pm

Cal wrote:Who sets the limits on what punishment is allowed in this system? What if I am so distressed by someone stealing my TV that I demand he's put to death?
For arguments sake, you could still have the same maximum/minimum sentences that exist today, only change the person choosing the term from the judge to the victim.

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by skalpel » Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:50 am

Seems pretty pointless to offer the victim a f***ing range of punishments for the person who wronged him <laugh>. The great majority would go maximum without a care for a decision based on what was revealed in court. Or what about when the victim or victim's family are in support of the accused (who is perhaps also a member of the victim's family)? It's a bit too simple to suppose that every case is Accused vs Victim or Accused vs Grieving Family. The emotions of relatives need to be kept out of it, whether they're in favour of the accused or against the accused. Impartial judges are the only sensible choices to pass sentences.

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by PTAO? » Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:08 am

So the alternative to offering them a range would be to just let them choose willynilly <wenger>

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Donkey Toon » Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:21 am

skalpel wrote:Seems pretty pointless to offer the victim a f****** range of punishments for the person who wronged him <laugh>. The great majority would go maximum without a care for a decision based on what was revealed in court. Or what about when the victim or victim's family are in support of the accused (who is perhaps also a member of the victim's family)? It's a bit too simple to suppose that every case is Accused vs Victim or Accused vs Grieving Family. The emotions of relatives need to be kept out of it, whether they're in favour of the accused or against the accused. Impartial judges are the only sensible choices to pass sentences.
Absolutely this. The justice system has as much responsibility to ensure that the sentence handed out is proportionate as it does to ensure that justice is done to the victim (or their family) and to safeguard society.

That could never be achieved if those intimately involved in the case had a say in the outcome.

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Cal » Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:16 pm

Pull the Arfa One wrote:
Cal wrote:Who sets the limits on what punishment is allowed in this system? What if I am so distressed by someone stealing my TV that I demand he's put to death?
For arguments sake, you could still have the same maximum/minimum sentences that exist today, only change the person choosing the term from the judge to the victim.
Bodacious Benny seems to want the family system so that they can deal punishments worse than a court would hand out though. If we used existing min/max sentences, they don't get their death penalty and it becomes more about how lenient the family want to be.

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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by Chappy » Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:51 pm

There should be a death penalty, just for Ashley. Fat cronut.
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