Does God Exist?

JFK-1
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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by JFK-1 » Thu May 19, 2016 12:42 am

Hjl wrote:
JFK-1 wrote:
Are you awaiting more evidence regarding Zeus? Apollo? Poseidon? Leprechauns and fairy godmothers before making a final decision? How much evidence is there already for any of those entities? By chance exactly the same as the Christian God. Absolutely zero evidence.

In the face of zero evidence for any such fantastic proposition it's best to say I will wait till there's even a shred of evidence before I would ever bother giving that even remotely possible status otherwise we are all left believing in every last fairytale creature that's ever been speculated plus all the countless Gods.

A fair point, I suppose my answer has evolved since moving to the US. Being an atheist in this part of the world makes getting work and advancement much more difficult. Almost a social pariah. So I say undecided to avoid saying definitively that there is no God.
Believe me I know what you're talking about. I'm Scottish but 4 years ago married an Oklahoman woman I met online and have been living in Oklahoma since March 2012. Compared to the society I came from these people are almost like aliens and they don't even know it. Even the Christians where I came from didn't deny the indisputable reality of evolution because they knew it would be insane to do so. Like denying the Earth is orbiting the Sun which their earlier descendants did for a very long time even after evidence had proven otherwise.

I still find it startling from time to time that they actually claim to believe all of the freaky things they say they do. Brand new Earth and instant man by magic spell in the last 6,000 years or so as an example despite indisputable evidence to the contrary.

I actually sometimes wonder if the majority really do believe it. Wonder if there is actually maybe just a tiny minority of crazies who really believe it while the majority just pretend they believe it because this is the corner they have boxed themselves into with that nonsense.

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Hjl » Thu May 19, 2016 4:08 am

JFK-1 wrote:
Hjl wrote:

A fair point, I suppose my answer has evolved since moving to the US. Being an atheist in this part of the world makes getting work and advancement much more difficult. Almost a social pariah. So I say undecided to avoid saying definitively that there is no God.
Believe me I know what you're talking about. I'm Scottish but 4 years ago married an Oklahoman woman I met online and have been living in Oklahoma since March 2012. Compared to the society I came from these people are almost like aliens and they don't even know it. Even the Christians where I came from didn't deny the indisputable reality of evolution because they knew it would be insane to do so. Like denying the Earth is orbiting the Sun which their earlier descendants did for a very long time even after evidence had proven otherwise.

I still find it startling from time to time that they actually claim to believe all of the freaky things they say they do. Brand new Earth and instant man by magic spell in the last 6,000 years or so as an example despite indisputable evidence to the contrary.

I actually sometimes wonder if the majority really do believe it. Wonder if there is actually maybe just a tiny minority of crazies who really believe it while the majority just pretend they believe it because this is the corner they have boxed themselves into with that nonsense.

It's very strange isn't it. What's even stranger is how often politicians bring up god here. God told me to do this or that etc, God wants this blah blah. Can you imagine Cameron saying that? He'd get laughed out of town, or maybe even given a psychiatric evaluation!

My in laws believe the earth is 6000 years old and that the bible is the literal truth and word of God. It's like dealing with lunatics. One of my neighbors refused medical help because he though the magic cloud man would heal him, he died of course. People often say, your in my prayers. It's very touching I suppose, but couldn't they do something more helpful?

Don't even get me started on millionaire mega church pastors. They have truely mastered manipulating the idiot masses into handing over their money. <grr> <grr> <grr>

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Sir Bobby » Thu May 19, 2016 4:47 am

Hjl wrote:
JFK-1 wrote:
Believe me I know what you're talking about. I'm Scottish but 4 years ago married an Oklahoman woman I met online and have been living in Oklahoma since March 2012. Compared to the society I came from these people are almost like aliens and they don't even know it. Even the Christians where I came from didn't deny the indisputable reality of evolution because they knew it would be insane to do so. Like denying the Earth is orbiting the Sun which their earlier descendants did for a very long time even after evidence had proven otherwise.

I still find it startling from time to time that they actually claim to believe all of the freaky things they say they do. Brand new Earth and instant man by magic spell in the last 6,000 years or so as an example despite indisputable evidence to the contrary.

I actually sometimes wonder if the majority really do believe it. Wonder if there is actually maybe just a tiny minority of crazies who really believe it while the majority just pretend they believe it because this is the corner they have boxed themselves into with that nonsense.

It's very strange isn't it. What's even stranger is how often politicians bring up god here. God told me to do this or that etc, God wants this blah blah. Can you imagine Cameron saying that? He'd get laughed out of town, or maybe even given a psychiatric evaluation!

My in laws believe the earth is 6000 years old and that the bible is the literal truth and word of God. It's like dealing with lunatics. One of my neighbors refused medical help because he though the magic cloud man would heal him, he died of course. People often say, your in my prayers. It's very touching I suppose, but couldn't they do something more helpful?

Don't even get me started on millionaire mega church pastors. They have truely mastered manipulating the idiot masses into handing over their money. <grr> <grr> <grr>
Christopher Hitchens (I think) said one of the differences between the US and the UK is that whereas the likes of Obama have to exaggerate their Christianity to appease the people, Tony Blair actually had to downplay his to avoid questioning on it

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by JFK-1 » Thu May 19, 2016 5:35 am

Sir Bobby wrote:
Hjl wrote:

It's very strange isn't it. What's even stranger is how often politicians bring up god here. God told me to do this or that etc, God wants this blah blah. Can you imagine Cameron saying that? He'd get laughed out of town, or maybe even given a psychiatric evaluation!

My in laws believe the earth is 6000 years old and that the bible is the literal truth and word of God. It's like dealing with lunatics. One of my neighbors refused medical help because he though the magic cloud man would heal him, he died of course. People often say, your in my prayers. It's very touching I suppose, but couldn't they do something more helpful?

Don't even get me started on millionaire mega church pastors. They have truely mastered manipulating the idiot masses into handing over their money. <grr> <grr> <grr>
Christopher Hitchens (I think) said one of the differences between the US and the UK is that whereas the likes of Obama have to exaggerate their Christianity to appease the people, Tony Blair actually had to downplay his to avoid questioning on it
Yes it's bizarre but like I said they don't even know it's bizarre because it's just so normal to them. Even after 4 years here I still find it weird and somewhat disturbing watching politicians say they are going to pray for this that and the next thing and encouraging the voters to do so too. If any British politician even mentioned God as an answer to any problem his career would be over the minute it came out of his mouth. But here it gets you votes.

Is the magic man open to majority vote? If enough people make a magical request it will be granted? Dunno how the hell Obama won two elections because the religious crazy vote was all on the republicans who have nothing left but the crazy vote. And somebody gets cancer treatment and survives and God did it. Absolutely nothing to do with surgery and chemotherapy. Don't know why the even bother with expensive time consuming s*** like that when prayers are on the job and I don't know why others who were prayed for died.

Sam Harris gives a good short analogy of how I feel about it in a clip on YouTube while comparing the people who believe in what I can only describe as an invisible magic universe creating sky fairy for whom there has never been even a shred of evidence with the people who believe Elvis is still alive and are ridiculed for that yet the fairy believers get a pass on their even more peculiar thoughts. He asks why the Elvis believers are mocked while the sky fairy believers who have an even more fantastic belief are not.

I would have posted the clip because it's quite amusing aside from anything else but the forum wont let me post links.

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Chappy Al-Shabab » Thu May 19, 2016 9:09 am

Yeah Sam Harris is sound. Loads of good clips of him on YouTube, he destroys Ben Affleck on Bill Maher's talk show. The same with Hitchens, I never get tired of watching him.

It's worrying that it's 2016 and in America you won't get far in politics unless you're religious. Total ****.
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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by skalpel » Thu May 19, 2016 11:08 am

Anyone into Harris and Hitchens owes it to themselves to read Heretic by Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Sir Bobby » Thu May 19, 2016 2:39 pm

Hitchens, Harris and Maher are three of the people I watch videos most of on YouTube <awe>

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Ciudad Burro » Thu May 19, 2016 3:23 pm

skalpel wrote:Anyone into Harris and Hitchens owes it to themselves to read Heretic by Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
Been meaning to read that for a while now. Need to get my arse in gear. <gent>

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Chappy Al-Shabab » Thu May 19, 2016 3:26 pm

skalpel wrote:Anyone into Harris and Hitchens owes it to themselves to read Heretic by Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
It came up on recommended books for me on Amazon, so will probably end up getting it <ok>
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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Ciudad Burro » Thu May 19, 2016 3:27 pm

Sir Bobby wrote:Hitchens, Harris and Maher are three of the people I watch videos most of on YouTube <awe>
I watch alot of Hitchens and Harris as well. Along with (currently anyway) Krauss and Dillahunty. The later I particularly enjoy because along with being very intelligent he is also a former fundamentalist christian who was training to be a Preacher and knows the Bible inside out. Makes him immensely good at debating Christian's when they insist on using scripture or canon as a debating tool.

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by JFK-1 » Thu May 19, 2016 6:08 pm

Donkey Toon wrote:
Sir Bobby wrote:Hitchens, Harris and Maher are three of the people I watch videos most of on YouTube <awe>
I watch alot of Hitchens and Harris as well. Along with (currently anyway) Krauss and Dillahunty. The later I particularly enjoy because along with being very intelligent he is also a former fundamentalist christian who was training to be a Preacher and knows the Bible inside out. Makes him immensely good at debating Christian's when they insist on using scripture or canon as a debating tool.
I have been watching Matt Dillahunty on the Atheist experience for around 7 years or so now and since I'm in Oklahoma which is right next door to Texas where it's transmitted from I'm in the same time zone and often watch it live on a Sunday afternoon.

It amuses me too when some of the fundies start calling in telling him what is and isn't in the bible thinking tbey're talking to someone who knows little about it then get their arses handed to them. Another one who I think is actually a better speaker than Matt Dillahunty is AronRa who is also from Texas and whose most recent video series is informative and entertaining as he deconstructs the rambling of a creationist video piece by piece over

If you haven't seen it you can search YouTube for AronRa Refuting the Irrefutable Proof of God - part I which is the first in a series of 10 so far. He uploaded part 10 just 4 days ago. The forum wont let me post links.

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Ciudad Burro » Thu May 19, 2016 6:46 pm

JFK-1 wrote:
Donkey Toon wrote:
I watch alot of Hitchens and Harris as well. Along with (currently anyway) Krauss and Dillahunty. The later I particularly enjoy because along with being very intelligent he is also a former fundamentalist christian who was training to be a Preacher and knows the Bible inside out. Makes him immensely good at debating Christian's when they insist on using scripture or canon as a debating tool.
I have been watching Matt Dillahunty on the Atheist experience for around 7 years or so now and since I'm in Oklahoma which is right next door to Texas where it's transmitted from I'm in the same time zone and often watch it live on a Sunday afternoon.

It amuses me too when some of the fundies start calling in telling him what is and isn't in the bible thinking tbey're talking to someone who knows little about it then get their arses handed to them. Another one who I think is actually a better speaker than Matt Dillahunty is AronRa who is also from Texas and whose most recent video series is informative and entertaining as he deconstructs the rambling of a creationist video piece by piece over

If you haven't seen it you can search YouTube for AronRa Refuting the Irrefutable Proof of God - part I which is the first in a series of 10 so far. He uploaded part 10 just 4 days ago. The forum wont let me post links.
I've been watching the ACA call-ins for about the same time. Like you say it is great when the fundamentalists come up against somebody who not only has a great grasp on philosophy and logical thinking but also, in many cases, knows far more about the contents of the bible than them as well. Few can do it better than Matt. And yes Aron Ra is also very good, I think i've caught most of his debates or talks on youtube, including that series (although, I think i'm only up to episode eight), but still finding new ones from time to time. I watched his debate with Matt Slick just last night actually. Fair play to him for not losing it big time <laugh>

Have you ever been tempted to go down to Austin for one of their after show dinner meets? I'd be there in a flash if I lived anywhere near.

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by JFK-1 » Thu May 19, 2016 7:07 pm

Donkey Toon wrote:
JFK-1 wrote:
I have been watching Matt Dillahunty on the Atheist experience for around 7 years or so now and since I'm in Oklahoma which is right next door to Texas where it's transmitted from I'm in the same time zone and often watch it live on a Sunday afternoon.

It amuses me too when some of the fundies start calling in telling him what is and isn't in the bible thinking tbey're talking to someone who knows little about it then get their arses handed to them. Another one who I think is actually a better speaker than Matt Dillahunty is AronRa who is also from Texas and whose most recent video series is informative and entertaining as he deconstructs the rambling of a creationist video piece by piece over

If you haven't seen it you can search YouTube for AronRa Refuting the Irrefutable Proof of God - part I which is the first in a series of 10 so far. He uploaded part 10 just 4 days ago. The forum wont let me post links.
I've been watching the ACA call-ins for about the same time. Like you say it is great when the fundamentalists come up against somebody who not only has a great grasp on philosophy and logical thinking but also, in many cases, knows far more about the contents of the bible than them as well. Few can do it better than Matt. And yes Aron Ra is also very good, I think i've caught most of his debates or talks on youtube, including that series (although, I think i'm only up to episode eight), but still finding new ones from time to time. I watched his debate with Matt Slick just last night actually. Fair play to him for not losing it big time <laugh>

Have you ever been tempted to go down to Austin for one of their after show dinner meets? I'd be there in a flash if I lived anywhere near.
It has crossed my mind to take a trip down there but Texas is huge, I think it's around four times the size of Britain. I can be in Dallas in maybe a couple of hours from here but Austin is over 400 miles and you're talking probably 7 hours just to go there.

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Hjl » Thu May 19, 2016 9:24 pm

I live in Galveston which is another 7 hrs south of there. Distances here aren't measured in miles, they are measured in hours.

Oh yea, so it would appear that the religious right are trying to ban abortions in OK.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36335316

Funny how they want to both force women to give birth whilst simultaneously saying anyone that relies on welfare to support that child is a useless sponge.

<wat>

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by JFK-1 » Thu May 19, 2016 9:46 pm

Hjl wrote:I live in Galveston which is another 7 hrs south of there. Distances here aren't measured in miles, they are measured in hours.

Oh yea, so it would appear that the religious right are trying to ban abortions in OK.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36335316

Funny how they want to both force women to give birth whilst simultaneously saying anyone that relies on welfare to support that child is a useless sponge.

<wat>
Oklahoma is a cess pit of religious nutcases who elect religious nutcases or at best people pretending to be religious nutcases. Want to be elected in Oklahoma? Just step up and say go God scientists are idiots and our book of bronze age mythology is a science text we should be teaching in science classes and your halfway there.

It's a competition to see who can introduce the nuttiest bills and another thing that's almost comical about it it is if it weren't so pathetic they're quick to criticise the Muslim equivalent while they themselves are the American Taliban only kept in check by a secular constitution they would overthrow by force if they could.

They're so inconsistent and two faced they support a system that puts some teenager in prison for a year for a first offence of smoking some weed which is entirely harmless while sitting there in a society littered with prescription drug addicts breaking multiple laws to get those prescription and drugs and turning a blind eye to that because so many of them are guilty of it.

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Ciudad Burro » Thu May 19, 2016 9:51 pm

JFK-1 wrote:It has crossed my mind to take a trip down there but Texas is huge, I think it's around four times the size of Britain. I can be in Dallas in maybe a couple of hours from here but Austin is over 400 miles and you're talking probably 7 hours just to go there.
Yeah I was aware that it would be a long journey. I'd be tempted to do it as a one off one day, staying over night. Be worth it to have a chat with Matt, Tracie and the gang. :)

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Ciudad Burro » Thu May 19, 2016 10:00 pm

JFK-1 wrote:
Hjl wrote:I live in Galveston which is another 7 hrs south of there. Distances here aren't measured in miles, they are measured in hours.

Oh yea, so it would appear that the religious right are trying to ban abortions in OK.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36335316

Funny how they want to both force women to give birth whilst simultaneously saying anyone that relies on welfare to support that child is a useless sponge.

<wat>
Oklahoma is a cess pit of religious nutcases who elect religious nutcases or at best people pretending to be religious nutcases. Want to be elected in Oklahoma? Just step up and say go God scientists are idiots and our book of bronze age mythology is a science text we should be teaching in science classes and your halfway there.

It's a competition to see who can introduce the nuttiest bills and another thing that's almost comical about it it is if it weren't so pathetic they're quick to criticise the Muslim equivalent while they themselves are the American Taliban only kept in check by a secular constitution they would overthrow by force if they could.

They're so inconsistent and two faced they support a system that puts some teenager in prison for a year for a first offence of smoking some weed which is entirely harmless while sitting there in a society littered with prescription drug addicts breaking multiple laws to get those prescription and drugs and turning a blind eye to that because so many of them are guilty of it.
Hasn't anybody pointed out to these religious zealots that the God of their bible is totally ok with abortion. To the extent that he prescribes it in Numbers 5 15-22, going to the trouble of describing the cocktail of ingredients necessary to make the abortion causing potion and the circumstances under which abortion should be carried out?

So presumably they think their own god is a law breaker too?

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by JFK-1 » Thu May 19, 2016 10:06 pm

Donkey Toon wrote:
JFK-1 wrote:It has crossed my mind to take a trip down there but Texas is huge, I think it's around four times the size of Britain. I can be in Dallas in maybe a couple of hours from here but Austin is over 400 miles and you're talking probably 7 hours just to go there.
Yeah I was aware that it would be a long journey. I'd be tempted to do it as a one off one day, staying over night. Be worth it to have a chat with Matt, Tracie and the gang. :)
I admire Matt Dillahunty for being so open minded that after a lifetime of being raised by a fundamentalist family in an all round fundamentalist environment he had the intellectual integrity in his mid 20's to see through how ridiculous his beliefs were even as he was striving at the time to find ways to justify them with a view to becoming a minister.

While most of the rest of the team were to some degree raised with religious belief it was nothing like the indoctrination and overall religious environment he came up in yet he got himself out of it. Couldn't even tell his family at the time. He was "outed" by an uncle who saw him on an online video.

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by JFK-1 » Thu May 19, 2016 10:09 pm

Donkey Toon wrote:
JFK-1 wrote:
Oklahoma is a cess pit of religious nutcases who elect religious nutcases or at best people pretending to be religious nutcases. Want to be elected in Oklahoma? Just step up and say go God scientists are idiots and our book of bronze age mythology is a science text we should be teaching in science classes and your halfway there.

It's a competition to see who can introduce the nuttiest bills and another thing that's almost comical about it it is if it weren't so pathetic they're quick to criticise the Muslim equivalent while they themselves are the American Taliban only kept in check by a secular constitution they would overthrow by force if they could.

They're so inconsistent and two faced they support a system that puts some teenager in prison for a year for a first offence of smoking some weed which is entirely harmless while sitting there in a society littered with prescription drug addicts breaking multiple laws to get those prescription and drugs and turning a blind eye to that because so many of them are guilty of it.
Hasn't anybody pointed out to these religious zealots that the God of their bible is totally ok with abortion. To the extent that he prescribes it in Numbers 5 15-22, going to the trouble of describing the cocktail of ingredients necessary to make the abortion causing potion and the circumstances under which abortion should be carried out?

So presumably they think their own god is a law breaker too?
If you watch the atheist experience for any length of time or look through the archive of programs which goes back decades now you discover that the majority of them haven't even read the bible and know little about what's in it aside from the tales almost everybody knows like the ark myth etc. In the US it's common for atheists to know more about the bible than the religious do.

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Hjl » Thu May 19, 2016 10:16 pm

Donkey Toon wrote:
JFK-1 wrote:
Oklahoma is a cess pit of religious nutcases who elect religious nutcases or at best people pretending to be religious nutcases. Want to be elected in Oklahoma? Just step up and say go God scientists are idiots and our book of bronze age mythology is a science text we should be teaching in science classes and your halfway there.

It's a competition to see who can introduce the nuttiest bills and another thing that's almost comical about it it is if it weren't so pathetic they're quick to criticise the Muslim equivalent while they themselves are the American Taliban only kept in check by a secular constitution they would overthrow by force if they could.

They're so inconsistent and two faced they support a system that puts some teenager in prison for a year for a first offence of smoking some weed which is entirely harmless while sitting there in a society littered with prescription drug addicts breaking multiple laws to get those prescription and drugs and turning a blind eye to that because so many of them are guilty of it.
Hasn't anybody pointed out to these religious zealots that the God of their bible is totally ok with abortion. To the extent that he prescribes it in Numbers 5 15-22, going to the trouble of describing the cocktail of ingredients necessary to make the abortion causing potion and the circumstances under which abortion should be carried out?

So presumably they think their own god is a law breaker too?

Well, you see, what your doing there is using facts to prove a point. People who use facts are denying the truth of blind faith! Heretic!

I imagine that this is mostly to try and stop young people from having sex, sex makes middle aged Christian extremists eyes bleed!

So yea, as I said earlier, it much simpler to just nod and smile rather than get into arguments with people that think if we don't ban abortions America will lose gods special protection (I'm not making that up, my sister in law said those exact words).

I'd say that the majority of horrors committed over the last 2000 years have been down to one Abrahimic religion or another.

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