Does God Exist?

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Ciudad Burro
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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Ciudad Burro » Thu May 19, 2016 10:19 pm

JFK-1 wrote:
Donkey Toon wrote:
Hasn't anybody pointed out to these religious zealots that the God of their bible is totally ok with abortion. To the extent that he prescribes it in Numbers 5 15-22, going to the trouble of describing the cocktail of ingredients necessary to make the abortion causing potion and the circumstances under which abortion should be carried out?

So presumably they think their own god is a law breaker too?
If you watch the atheist experience for any length of time or look through the archive of programs which goes back decades now you discover that the majority of them haven't even read the bible and know little about what's in it aside from the tales almost everybody knows like the ark myth etc. In the US it's common for atheists to know more about the bible than the religious do.
I think this is true of atheists everywhere according to surveys.

And this is the thing that makes it hard for me to accept that most christians genuinely believe. If I was a true believer and was aware that the God I believed in had written/dictated a book, laying out how I was supposed to live my life, then wild horses could not stop me from reading that book at my first opportunity. And I would not let any distraction slow me down or prevent me from reading it as quickly as possible.

My conclusion is that most professed christians don't read the bible because they know that it is **** and that reading it will destroy any faith they have. As many atheists have said before - getting the religious to read their holy books is the most effective way to create more atheists.

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by JFK-1 » Thu May 19, 2016 10:41 pm

Donkey Toon wrote:
JFK-1 wrote:
If you watch the atheist experience for any length of time or look through the archive of programs which goes back decades now you discover that the majority of them haven't even read the bible and know little about what's in it aside from the tales almost everybody knows like the ark myth etc. In the US it's common for atheists to know more about the bible than the religious do.
I think this is true of atheists everywhere according to surveys.

And this is the thing that makes it hard for me to accept that most christians genuinely believe. If I was a true believer and was aware that the God I believed in had written/dictated a book, laying out how I was supposed to live my life, then wild horses could not stop me from reading that book at my first opportunity. And I would not let any distraction slow me down or prevent me from reading it as quickly as possible.

My conclusion is that most professed christians don't read the bible because they know that it is **** and that reading it will destroy any faith they have. As many atheists have said before - getting the religious to read their holy books is the most effective way to create more atheists.
Surveys also indicate that atheists tend to have a higher IQ which possibly just boils down to the fact that they're not really more intelligent as such simply more prepared to actually read and research opposing sides of any issue with a critical open mind.

I have an American wife who grew up in an uber religious fundamentalist environment with fundamentalist parents and while she has given up on the creationist babble after having the facts of evolution presented to her by me she is a still a believer in a God though doesn't attend any church. She was actually somewhat angry to discover the reality of evolution and not angry at the facts but rather angry that the babble she had been fed by the creationist environment she grew up in largely amounted to blatant lies.

Example, "there are no transitional fossils" Blatant lie, in reality there are so many we haven't even classified them all yet and she now knows that. And empty statements that on the surface seem to make sense till you actually find reason to start thinking about it rather than just listening to it such as this.

"If we come from chimps why are there still chimps?" Well obviously we don't come from chimps any more than donkeys come from zebra but rather we have a common ancestor. Her sister is still a 100% fundie going for the brand new Earth instant man by magic spell nonsense and she once pulled that chimp stupidity on me so I said to her.

Do you think dogs come from wolves? She agreed that dogs come from wolves so my next question is so why are there still wolves and do you think a wolf gave birth to a poodle one day? That obviously destroys her own line of reasoning regarding humans and chimps but simply makes her angry rather than thoughtful.

No response to the poodle enquiry and as for there still being wolves well that's simply because "that's the way God wants it to be"

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Ciudad Burro » Thu May 19, 2016 10:58 pm

JFK-1 wrote:
Donkey Toon wrote:
I think this is true of atheists everywhere according to surveys.

And this is the thing that makes it hard for me to accept that most christians genuinely believe. If I was a true believer and was aware that the God I believed in had written/dictated a book, laying out how I was supposed to live my life, then wild horses could not stop me from reading that book at my first opportunity. And I would not let any distraction slow me down or prevent me from reading it as quickly as possible.

My conclusion is that most professed christians don't read the bible because they know that it is **** and that reading it will destroy any faith they have. As many atheists have said before - getting the religious to read their holy books is the most effective way to create more atheists.
Surveys also indicate that atheists tend to have a higher IQ which possibly just boils down to the fact that they're not really more intelligent as such simply more prepared to actually read and research opposing sides of any issue with a critical open mind.

I have an American wife who grew up in an uber religious fundamentalist environment with fundamentalist parents and while she has given up on the creationist babble after having the facts of evolution presented to her by me she is a still a believer in a God though doesn't attend any church. She was actually somewhat angry to discover the reality of evolution and not angry at the facts but rather angry that the babble she had been fed by the creationist environment she grew up in largely amounted to blatant lies.

Example, "there are no transitional fossils" Blatant lie, in reality there are so many we haven't even classified them all yet and she now knows that. And empty statements that on the surface seem to make sense till you actually find reason to start thinking about it rather than just listening to it such as this.

"If we come from chimps why are there still chimps?" Well obviously we don't come from chimps any more than donkeys come from zebra but rather we have a common ancestor. Her sister is still a 100% fundie going for the brand new Earth instant man by magic spell nonsense and she once pulled that chimp stupidity on me so I said to her.

Do you think dogs come from wolves? She agreed that dogs come from wolves so my next question is so why are there still wolves and do you think a wolf gave birth to a poodle one day? That obviously destroys her own line of reasoning regarding humans and chimps but simply makes her angry rather than thoughtful.

No response to the poodle enquiry and as for there still being wolves well that's simply because "that's the way God wants it to be"
That is the thing. It isn't a matter of intelligence, it is a matter of brainwashing at an impressionable age. Many years of systematic indoctrination from people that a young person looks up to and is willing to accept on faith is telling the truth cannot be easily washed away. But your wife has gotten there and i'm sure is intelligent, just as anybody who has watched Matt Dillahunty or Tracie Harris or any of the other converts on the Atheist Experience can be in no doubt that they are intelligent. Yet they once believed things that are for all intents to any non-believer ridiculous.

Then like you say the science nay-sayers are just determined to stick to their guns. I was gobsmacked to hear Ted Cruz last week liken his stance on global warming to that of Galileo's regarding the earth's orbit around the sun. He totally failed to realise however that he is the opposite, because Galileo was persecuted for proposing a scientific theory that had not been accepted, whereas Cruz is continuing to deny a scientific theory that anybody with half a brain has accepted. That he doesn't even realise his error tells you everything you need to know about how religion clouds critical thinking.

As for your sister in law, I guess anger is an expected reaction to the destruction of your heart felt beliefs. It can't be easy. I've never been a believer so cannot understand what she is going through, although I can imagine. Guess you will just have to keep discussing and hope that she will come around in time.

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by skalpel » Thu May 19, 2016 11:05 pm

If you spend a lifetime believing in heaven, and you have structured your entire coping mechanism on there being a heaven, and then somebody comes along and tells you there is no heaven, they're basically saying to you that you will never see your deceased spouse/child/parent/friend ever again, that some of the mistakes you made years ago can never be reconciled, and that you have wasted years of your only chance at life. I'd be pretty pissed off too. Frankly its amazing that anybody who has experienced a lot of life in their lifetime of religious belief ever gives it up. The instinct for denial must be nearly insuperable.

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Hjl » Thu May 19, 2016 11:10 pm

Donkey Toon wrote:
JFK-1 wrote:
Surveys also indicate that atheists tend to have a higher IQ which possibly just boils down to the fact that they're not really more intelligent as such simply more prepared to actually read and research opposing sides of any issue with a critical open mind.

I have an American wife who grew up in an uber religious fundamentalist environment with fundamentalist parents and while she has given up on the creationist babble after having the facts of evolution presented to her by me she is a still a believer in a God though doesn't attend any church. She was actually somewhat angry to discover the reality of evolution and not angry at the facts but rather angry that the babble she had been fed by the creationist environment she grew up in largely amounted to blatant lies.

Example, "there are no transitional fossils" Blatant lie, in reality there are so many we haven't even classified them all yet and she now knows that. And empty statements that on the surface seem to make sense till you actually find reason to start thinking about it rather than just listening to it such as this.

"If we come from chimps why are there still chimps?" Well obviously we don't come from chimps any more than donkeys come from zebra but rather we have a common ancestor. Her sister is still a 100% fundie going for the brand new Earth instant man by magic spell nonsense and she once pulled that chimp stupidity on me so I said to her.

Do you think dogs come from wolves? She agreed that dogs come from wolves so my next question is so why are there still wolves and do you think a wolf gave birth to a poodle one day? That obviously destroys her own line of reasoning regarding humans and chimps but simply makes her angry rather than thoughtful.

No response to the poodle enquiry and as for there still being wolves well that's simply because "that's the way God wants it to be"
That is the thing. It isn't a matter of intelligence, it is a matter of brainwashing at an impressionable age. Many years of systematic indoctrination from people that a young person looks up to and is willing to accept on faith is telling the truth cannot be easily washed away. But your wife has gotten there and i'm sure is intelligent, just as anybody who has watched Matt Dillahunty or Tracie Harris or any of the other converts on the Atheist Experience can be in no doubt that they are intelligent. Yet they once believed things that are for all intents to any non-believer ridiculous.

Then like you say the science nay-sayers are just determined to stick to their guns. I was gobsmacked to hear Ted Cruz last week liken his stance on global warming to that of Galileo's regarding the earth's orbit around the sun. He totally failed to realise however that he is the opposite, because Galileo was persecuted for proposing a scientific theory that had not been accepted, whereas Cruz is continuing to deny a scientific theory that anybody with half a brain has accepted. That he doesn't even realise his error tells you everything you need to know about how religion clouds critical thinking.

As for your sister in law, I guess anger is an expected reaction to the destruction of your heart felt beliefs. It can't be easy. I've never been a believer so cannot understand what she is going through, although I can imagine. Guess you will just have to keep discussing and hope that she will come around in time.
Honestly I find the best way to deal with it is to nod and smile. As long as she doesn't try to indoctrinate my children then I could not care any less what particular mysticism she chooses to believe. I can't very well get annoyed at others for forcing their opinions down my throat and then do it strait back.

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Ciudad Burro » Thu May 19, 2016 11:16 pm

skalpel wrote:If you spend a lifetime believing in heaven, and you have structured your entire coping mechanism on there being a heaven, and then somebody comes along and tells you there is no heaven, they're basically saying to you that you will never see your deceased spouse/child/parent/friend ever again, that some of the mistakes you made years ago can never be reconciled, and that you have wasted years of your only chance at life. I'd be pretty pissed off too. Frankly its amazing that anybody who has experienced a lot of life in their lifetime of religious belief ever gives it up. The instinct for denial must be nearly insuperable.
Totally agree. Which is why my conclusion about why many Christians haven't/don't read the bible goes beyond it being just an issue of not wanting their faith to be broken because they will be proved to have been wrong to believe, but because they are afraid of not believing anymore.

It must be a scary situation to be in to have your worldview so drastically changed, especially in relation to rejoining loved ones in an after life. Losing that hope would be like losing loved ones all over again, because you now have to re-adjust to the finality of their passing.

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by JFK-1 » Fri May 20, 2016 4:41 am

Hjl wrote:
Donkey Toon wrote:
That is the thing. It isn't a matter of intelligence, it is a matter of brainwashing at an impressionable age. Many years of systematic indoctrination from people that a young person looks up to and is willing to accept on faith is telling the truth cannot be easily washed away. But your wife has gotten there and i'm sure is intelligent, just as anybody who has watched Matt Dillahunty or Tracie Harris or any of the other converts on the Atheist Experience can be in no doubt that they are intelligent. Yet they once believed things that are for all intents to any non-believer ridiculous.

Then like you say the science nay-sayers are just determined to stick to their guns. I was gobsmacked to hear Ted Cruz last week liken his stance on global warming to that of Galileo's regarding the earth's orbit around the sun. He totally failed to realise however that he is the opposite, because Galileo was persecuted for proposing a scientific theory that had not been accepted, whereas Cruz is continuing to deny a scientific theory that anybody with half a brain has accepted. That he doesn't even realise his error tells you everything you need to know about how religion clouds critical thinking.

As for your sister in law, I guess anger is an expected reaction to the destruction of your heart felt beliefs. It can't be easy. I've never been a believer so cannot understand what she is going through, although I can imagine. Guess you will just have to keep discussing and hope that she will come around in time.
Honestly I find the best way to deal with it is to nod and smile. As long as she doesn't try to indoctrinate my children then I could not care any less what particular mysticism she chooses to believe. I can't very well get annoyed at others for forcing their opinions down my throat and then do it strait back.
In my case I don't force my opinions on her it's always her who starts it and when she asks me a question like the chimp thing I'm going to answer it honestly though to be true I suppose I take some satisfaction in blowing away such utter rubbish which she thinks when she comes out with it is a clincher.

You would imagine that as each and every little piece of waffle they try to present as "evidence" of magic is completely rubbished they might start thinking what's left? Is there anything to prove my point and when they can't find anything then give it up but they don't. Totally bizarre.

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Sir Bobby » Fri May 20, 2016 7:01 am

It's terror management theory exemplified. I don't see why you can't believe in an afterlife without religion though. They're not mutually exclusive ideas

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by ghostrider » Fri May 20, 2016 8:18 am

Our lives have been conditioned to believe in almost everything magical. From santa claus to the tooth fairy, to Leprechauns and fairies. the list is endless.
We are brought up to not only believe in a god but to fear a god whilst also fearing an enemy of the god we fear - the devil.

Mass opinion or indoctrination wins hands down against the few that proclaim to be atheist. Basically a person or the few people that come out as atheist, are basically bullied by being called all kinds of names, such as evil or the devils disciple or ignorant. You name a put down and it's probably been used.
So what gives a god believer the right to say these things?
The answer is simply mass opinion borne from authority, which has placed history books in front of you, plus buildings for people to pray in - with statues depicting what god looks like, all hosted by people in cloth.

Ask any person why they believe in god and most will say "I just do. Someone has to be looking over us after creating us."

Some people will tell you that god has helped them. And some will say he came to them and made them believe in him.
Are they lying?
No they're not. They can be deep enough into something as to take it as a truth.

The trouble is, if people in a small group believe in their own god, they are called a dangerous cult.
If a person talks to their invisible friend in front of others, that person is either classed as a nut case or a dangerous nut case, or in extremes, that person is carted off to a mental hospital/asylum.

If a mass group of people stand inside a building and pray to an invisible god, they are known as intelligent pillars of society.

I can tell you one thing. When I was a kid we were told to keep away from this man who had a limp. This fear of this man spread. All kids used to see him and run. Some would scream, "run, run, here comes mad manners."
The name, manners is made up because I forget the name used and it was something like that.
This man merely went to work and then made his way to the club for a few drinks. that was it. His crime was to chase a few kids from his garden a few times.

So what has that got to do with god?

Basically in those days, kids were ridiculously easy to convince of anything and it could be carried throughout life to offspring and so on.
The issue is, once I go and once others around my age group go; nobody will remember him.

Now we are told that our god sent his son down to be crucified for all of our sins, or something along those lines. He was crucified along with many men who apparently followed him.
Who kept the records of it or was it just word of mouth to this very day?

The problem is, if we argue it, we are set upon - sometimes viciously by people who profess to follow a god and yet do not follow supposed commandments.

We get told that if we don't follow a god then the devil will cast his net and take us to the depths of hell to burn for all eternity.
Basically keep you in fear for the sake of keeping you focused on something to make you be a good person and to follow the masses.

Having said all of that, I can't 100% say that there is no higher being/god/entity or whatever. I can choose to just live my own life and take what comes, as it comes - and to focus on the people that mean anything to me, rather than worrying about having to choose which entity to follow by rules set out in books that dictate the light and the dark side and where to congregate to be a part of this.

I'm a bull or a sheep or a dog or a human being. An ant or a fly or a microbe in sludge. What am I?
I'm a growth as part of a cell that decays and becomes that sludge that aids in the growth of more microbes that mutate and decay.
The purpose of life? To simply spread like a bacteria and die like it after spawning bacteria.
That's all we are in my view. We are only special to us.

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Ciudad Burro » Sat May 21, 2016 1:29 pm

Good to see that Gov. Fallin vetoed the Oklahoma bill declaring abortions a felony.

Haven't read into it to find out her reasons. I suspect that they are more to do with protecting Oklahoma from business sanctions of the sort North Carolina has become subjected to rather than for sound reasons, but what the hell so long as reason has prevailed.

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Hjl » Sat May 21, 2016 3:28 pm

Donkey Toon wrote:Good to see that Gov. Fallin vetoed the Oklahoma bill declaring abortions a felony.

Haven't read into it to find out her reasons. I suspect that they are more to do with protecting Oklahoma from business sanctions of the sort North Carolina has become subjected to rather than for sound reasons, but what the hell so long as reason has prevailed.
It was vetoed because it wasn't written well enough to withstand legal challenges.

Atleast that was the justification given. It probably had a more political reason for being vetoed.

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Re: Does God Exist?

Post by Ciudad Burro » Sat May 21, 2016 3:50 pm

Hjl wrote:
Donkey Toon wrote:Good to see that Gov. Fallin vetoed the Oklahoma bill declaring abortions a felony.

Haven't read into it to find out her reasons. I suspect that they are more to do with protecting Oklahoma from business sanctions of the sort North Carolina has become subjected to rather than for sound reasons, but what the hell so long as reason has prevailed.
It was vetoed because it wasn't written well enough to withstand legal challenges.

Atleast that was the justification given. It probably had a more political reason for being vetoed.
Ok. Yeah I agree. That justification gives her an out with the Conservative base whilst still avoiding the political implications. So probably a shrewd move.

And you never know that might even be the real reason.

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