"Right to Work"

[skalpel]

I know I volunteer for the army but my point is I get paid a similar amount per hour as they would as do regular soldiers so maybe they and right to work should stop complaining. It's not unpaid. They get/earn their benefits. Can't really comment on your own experience looking for jobs but in my experience most shops would rather you had retail time under your belt rather than a few extra GCSEs or A-levels.

So because some people choose to enter a career taking part in the atrocities the government is carrying out in the Middle-East knowing full well what they're getting paid, people have no right to complain when they aren't paid at all for doing normal/civilian work against their will?

It is unpaid work, nothing to do with earning benefits, other than the fact they stop them if you don't play along. Their benefits are paid to them to help them get by when they have no other means to support themselves, thrusting unpaid work on top of that does not equal "earning" their benefits. Admittedly dividing the benefits by the hours worked was a bit misleading on that point, it was intended to be representative of how little they're effectively getting for doing the exact same thing as the people next to them who earn £6.08+ per hour.

I'm with Cal on this. If the amount of work was equated to the amount of JSA they receive (based on minimum wage) then I don't see why there'd be a problem really. For a couple of months maximum you could have a minimum wage job and a bit extra to stick on your CV. But to be forced into a job where you could 'earn' around £1 an hour doing the same as other people who are getting £5 an hour more than you is not earning anything; it's being used for extremely cheap labour by the government to keep the economy ticking.

[Blue & Maroon]

I know I volunteer for the army but my point is I get paid a similar amount per hour as they would as do regular soldiers so maybe they and right to work should stop complaining. It's not unpaid. They get/earn their benefits. Can't really comment on your own experience looking for jobs but in my experience most shops would rather you had retail time under your belt rather than a few extra GCSEs or A-levels.

So because some people choose to enter a career taking part in the atrocities the government is carrying out in the Middle-East knowing full well what they're getting paid, people have no right to complain when they aren't paid at all for doing normal/civilian work against their will?

It is unpaid work, nothing to do with earning benefits, other than the fact they stop them if you don't play along. Their benefits are paid to them to help them get by when they have no other means to support themselves, thrusting unpaid work on top of that does not equal "earning" their benefits. Admittedly dividing the benefits by the hours worked was a bit misleading on that point, it was intended to be representative of how little they're effectively getting for doing the exact same thing as the people next to them who earn £6.08+ per hour.

I'm not getting into what the army is doing in the Middle East or whether they are heroes or all that BS, my point was that they earn shitty wages for a much harder job and much longer days, people do have the right to complain but maybe they should engage their brains a little bit when they do, other people do shitty jobs as well.

If I was 16-18 just coming out of school with no job I know I would glad to be given some valuable work experience that would get my foot in the door whilst claiming benefits, at least I could feel like I had earned them and give them some self worth. It was a situation I was close to being in not too long ago and was lucky to get out of.

[QWOP]

There are 2 sides to this coin and people must be aware of both. On principle, I fully agree with people being told to work for their dole money. This way, they can get into a routine, get up every morning, put on their uniform and head to work. It will give them a sense of fulfillment that they would otherwise not get just by sitting at home. It also fills in a gap that may have existed which is always a good thing. I do not buy into this whole "we are being underpaid blah blah blah" as for most of the time, they have been given money to do bugger all prior to being on this scheme.

The flip side to all this, has nothing to do with the person on the dole but rather a person working at Tesco etc already. Is it fair on them to have some work experience type person who is unable to find work take hours they may require, via over time, to get by themselves.

I believe a better compromise would be to put these people in public sector jobs (bin men, street cleaners etc) or in charity shops.

[skalpel]

So because some people choose to enter a career taking part in the atrocities the government is carrying out in the Middle-East knowing full well what they're getting paid, people have no right to complain when they aren't paid at all for doing normal/civilian work against their will?

It is unpaid work, nothing to do with earning benefits, other than the fact they stop them if you don't play along. Their benefits are paid to them to help them get by when they have no other means to support themselves, thrusting unpaid work on top of that does not equal "earning" their benefits. Admittedly dividing the benefits by the hours worked was a bit misleading on that point, it was intended to be representative of how little they're effectively getting for doing the exact same thing as the people next to them who earn £6.08+ per hour.

I'm not getting into what the army is doing in the Middle East or whether they are heroes or all that BS, my point was that they earn shitty wages for a much harder job and much longer days, people do have the right to complain but maybe they should engage their brains a little bit when they do, other people do shitty jobs as well.

If I was 16-18 just coming out of school with no job I know I would glad to be given some valuable work experience that would get my foot in the door whilst claiming benefits, at least I could feel like I had earned them and give them some self worth. It was a situation I was close to being in not too long ago and was lucky to get out of.

To tackle just the experience/earning point you make there: What if you're not 16-18 and just coming out of school? What if you're an older guy who has been let go by his long term job and is now having to work for just over £1 an hour in a shop with a bunch of croutons earing 5 times his salary? There's taking pride in earning and then there's being totally demoralised by being forced into working almost for free which could kill off a lot of the self esteem that gets you back on your feet in such a situation anyway. What use is the experience of 2 months full time work sweeping cornflakes off the floor of Tesco while earning 1/5th of minimum wage going to be to a guy in his 50s?

[Blue & Maroon]

I'm not getting into what the army is doing in the Middle East or whether they are heroes or all that BS, my point was that they earn shitty wages for a much harder job and much longer days, people do have the right to complain but maybe they should engage their brains a little bit when they do, other people do shitty jobs as well.

If I was 16-18 just coming out of school with no job I know I would glad to be given some valuable work experience that would get my foot in the door whilst claiming benefits, at least I could feel like I had earned them and give them some self worth. It was a situation I was close to being in not too long ago and was lucky to get out of.

To tackle just the experience/earning point you make there: What if you're not 16-18 and just coming out of school? What if you're an older guy who has been let go by his long term job and is now having to work for just over £1 an hour in a shop with a bunch of croutons earing 5 times his salary? There's taking pride in earning and then there's being totally demoralised by being forced into working almost for free which could kill off a lot of the self esteem that gets you back on your feet in such a situation anyway. What use is the experience of 2 months full time work sweeping cornflakes off the floor of Tesco while earning 1/5th of minimum wage going to be to a guy in his 50s?

Fair point. I never argued the idea was perfect, maybe it needs to be fine tuned to tackle youth unemployment whilst older people who are unemployed should be sent on courses or another solution could be found. Seriously though I think this will give a boost to younger people, before I started working I would have wanted to be on one of these schemes sitting on your arse doing nothing is the worst feeling in the world.

[Cal]

There are 2 sides to this coin and people must be aware of both. On principle, I fully agree with people being told to work for their dole money. This way, they can get into a routine, get up every morning, put on their uniform and head to work. It will give them a sense of fulfillment that they would otherwise not get just by sitting at home. It also fills in a gap that may have existed which is always a good thing. I do not buy into this whole "we are being underpaid blah blah blah" as for most of the time, they have been given money to do bugger all prior to being on this scheme.

The flip side to all this, has nothing to do with the person on the dole but rather a person working at Tesco etc already. Is it fair on them to have some work experience type person who is unable to find work take hours they may require, via over time, to get by themselves.

I believe a better compromise would be to put these people in public sector jobs (bin men, street cleaners etc) or in charity shops.

There is no sense of fulfillment to be had from working in retail, just a greater contempt for the general public.

Job Seeker's Allowance isn't being "given money to do bugger all", it's the government giving people out of work just enough money to survive on. Yes there are croutons who take advantage of the system and skew people's perception of what life is like on the dole and breed this feeling of contempt towards anyone on JSA.

I have no problem with the idea of people on JSA giving something back to the community/public in some sort of reciprocative gesture, but earning the equivalent of £2 or so an hour in an industry that is of no benefit to the general public or tax payer by having them there isn't the way. I would agree that public sector work would be far more suitable, but only the equivalent of the amount of minimum wage work they would have to do to in employment (unless they volunteer to do more). So in my example, I'd happily do 9 hours of work which benefits the public and indirectly repay the £55, but up to 30 hours in retail aiding only the finances of that company, no chance.

[Pardew's Legendary Specs]

That's the best idea yet, 9 hours or whatever it works out at per week doing something that benefits the public.

Issue is finding good job like that which benefit public AND benefit the unemplyed by having the experience

[QWOP]

There are 2 sides to this coin and people must be aware of both. On principle, I fully agree with people being told to work for their dole money. This way, they can get into a routine, get up every morning, put on their uniform and head to work. It will give them a sense of fulfillment that they would otherwise not get just by sitting at home. It also fills in a gap that may have existed which is always a good thing. I do not buy into this whole "we are being underpaid blah blah blah" as for most of the time, they have been given money to do bugger all prior to being on this scheme.

The flip side to all this, has nothing to do with the person on the dole but rather a person working at Tesco etc already. Is it fair on them to have some work experience type person who is unable to find work take hours they may require, via over time, to get by themselves.

I believe a better compromise would be to put these people in public sector jobs (bin men, street cleaners etc) or in charity shops.

There is no sense of fulfillment to be had from working in retail, just a greater contempt for the general public.
Job Seeker's Allowance isn't being "given money to do bugger all", it's the government giving people out of work just enough money to survive on. Yes there are croutons who take advantage of the system and skew people's perception of what life is like on the dole and breed this feeling of contempt towards anyone on JSA.

I have no problem with the idea of people on JSA giving something back to the community/public in some sort of reciprocative gesture, but earning the equivalent of £2 or so an hour in an industry that is of no benefit to the general public or tax payer by having them there isn't the way. I would agree that public sector work would be far more suitable, but only the equivalent of the amount of minimum wage work they would have to do to in employment (unless they volunteer to do more). So in my example, I'd happily do 9 hours of work which benefits the public and indirectly repay the £55, but up to 30 hours in retail aiding only the finances of that company, no chance.

Point 1 that you make is invalid as far as I am concerned. Remember this is voluntary! People know full well what they are letting themselves in for. To turn down any work at all is stupid in my eyes and all employers are sympathetic to hard times. I know engineers, bankers, doctors who have worked in shops inbetween their usual line of work and they get employed again for actually not having any major gap in their cv. That is what this aids too.

Point 2. I agree up to a point but again these people have been out of work for 6 months or more! If you are out of employment that long then I am sorry, something is wrong or you are being too picky. You get used to picking up the dole and your drive, skills etc all become weaker through time.

Your final paragraph tells me you did not read my final sentence. They should do an equivalent time in the public sector to help us out or maybe go work in a charity shop. I implore you to read a bit more about this right to work scheme before condemning it.

[Cal]

There is no sense of fulfillment to be had from working in retail, just a greater contempt for the general public.
Job Seeker's Allowance isn't being "given money to do bugger all", it's the government giving people out of work just enough money to survive on. Yes there are croutons who take advantage of the system and skew people's perception of what life is like on the dole and breed this feeling of contempt towards anyone on JSA.

I have no problem with the idea of people on JSA giving something back to the community/public in some sort of reciprocative gesture, but earning the equivalent of £2 or so an hour in an industry that is of no benefit to the general public or tax payer by having them there isn't the way. I would agree that public sector work would be far more suitable, but only the equivalent of the amount of minimum wage work they would have to do to in employment (unless they volunteer to do more). So in my example, I'd happily do 9 hours of work which benefits the public and indirectly repay the £55, but up to 30 hours in retail aiding only the finances of that company, no chance.

Point 1 that you make is invalid as far as I am concerned. Remember this is voluntary! People know full well what they are letting themselves in for. To turn down any work at all is stupid in my eyes and all employers are sympathetic to hard times. I know engineers, bankers, doctors who have worked in shops inbetween their usual line of work and they get employed again for actually not having any major gap in their cv. That is what this aids too.

Point 2. I agree up to a point but again these people have been out of work for 6 months or more! If you are out of employment that long then I am sorry, something is wrong or you are being too picky. You get used to picking up the dole and your drive, skills etc all become weaker through time.

Your final paragraph tells me you did not read my final sentence. They should do an equivalent time in the public sector to help us out or maybe go work in a charity shop. I implore you to read a bit more about this right to work scheme before condemning it.

I've got to leave now, so not got time to write a proper response. I did read your entire post and was agreeing with the final line. I was unemployed for over 6 months despite applying for pretty much every job going, it's nothing to do with being too picky or doing something wrong, it's just how the job market is. When the Five Swans opened there were over a thousand applicants for menial positions there, if you want some sense of scale of how many people are going for even a few jobs. The scheme may claim to be voluntary, but you're thoroughly pressured into going into it, and if you say no they say that's your JSA stopped, I only avoided it because I had a rare job centre advisor who actually tried to help, saw I was going to uni before my time on the program would end and that the scheme would be utterly pointless for me. I have read plenty about this scheme, considering I was going to be faced with it at the time, and from the off I've seen nothing to convince me it's of any benefit in it's current form.

[asbo]

I can see both sides to this, but on the face of it it seems to have potential. Forcing people to work for the amount Cal calculated is just wrong, you might as well stick them in sweatshops somewhere. The I think they should at least be paid the minimum wage for 16 year olds (£3.68 per hour) and their expenses should be covered, which I assume they are. If you're skint working in Tesco would be worth it for the staff discount alone, I assume they'd offer this to the worker.

Measures should be taken to prevent businesses exploiting this though, they're ridiculously unscrupulous these days and if they had the option of picking up people for free they'd use it to cut jobs wherever possible.

I think sending people out to do road work would be massively beneficial to the community, they're in a terrible state in this country. I think people wouldn't feel so much animosity towards people on benefits if they prevented them from having their tyres ripped out by potholes. A lot of highways really need expanding as well, our cars get bigger and bigger every year but the roads aren't widened to accomodate them.

[Cal]

Just got back in and found this in my inbox.

Unemployment is rocketing, but big businesses are using free labour instead of hiring new employees.

James Moorehead is a computer programming graduate from Teesside who worked unpaid for 8 weeks at Maplin under the Government’s workfare scheme. During the placement he wasn’t able to take a day off, even if it was for an interview for full-time work.

James thinks the workfare scheme is exploiting rather than solving unemployment by giving large companies like ASDA, Poundland & Topshop free temporary staff. He’s started a campaign on Change.org asking the CEOs of the biggest company partners to withdraw from the workfare scheme. Click here to join James’ campaign.

Already some big businesses have withdrawn from the scheme under public pressure to stop using an unpaid workforce including Maplin, Sainsbury’s and Waterstones. Yesterday Tesco announced that there would be paid placements and a guarantee of a job for those that satisfactorily complete their work experience. James thinks that if the public keep up the pressure on all workfare partners, the scheme will be dropped altogether.

James understands the need to gain experience to get a job but thinks unpaid placements like these are unfair and leading to less jobs in a time of recession. A Tesco manager even admitted that they had no incentive to hire extra staff when they could get temporary people for free.

Join James and tell ASDA, Poundland and Topshop to stop participating in the workfare scheme. Add your name to the petition now.

Thanks for being part of this,

- Brie and the Change.org team

P.S. To learn more about the campaigns set-up on our platform in the UK and globally, follow Change.org UK on Twitter and Like Change.org on Facebook.

[Chip Chipperson]

Is this just in retail stores? What if you didn't want to work in a retail outlet, but wanted to gain experience in a factory or warehouse environment? I don't know much all of this, as i haven't had time to read all the comments, but if they're working for 8 weeks, full-time and still only receiving JSA, then surely that's wrong. You can give them all the experience you want, and make them do it, but it still doesn't guarantee them work. I know people who've done courses and placements with the promises of finding work, but they turn out to be false.

Employers need to relax on the experience aspects of things; and instead take on people who have little or no experience who can learn.

[QWOP]

One thing worth mentioning is I believe they had a similar thing in the 80's. It did not work so well!

[beardface]

Is this just in retail stores? What if you didn't want to work in a retail outlet, but wanted to gain experience in a factory or warehouse environment? I don't know much all of this, as i haven't had time to read all the comments, but if they're working for 8 weeks, full-time and still only receiving JSA, then surely that's wrong. You can give them all the experience you want, and make them do it, but it still doesn't guarantee them work. I know people who've done courses and placements with the promises of finding work, but they turn out to be false.

Employers need to relax on the experience aspects of things; and instead take on people who have little or no experience who can learn.

I assume it isn't just for retail shops as one guy who done the course was on the news the other day saying how it helped him get his job as a carpenter or something.

[ToonSi]

I was sure we've had this debate before where a Uni graduate lass was pulled out of doing voluntary work at a library which would actually benefit her in the pursuit of her chosen career and they made her work in poundland alongside people earning at least minimum wage & she was told if she didn't do the placement she'd lose JSA.
Ridiculous concept in all honesty and very demeaning/demoralising.
I'm so glad I managed to find a job straight out of Uni.