lol answer 2 this now is no

They've not been great by any stretch, especially Clark IMO.

v West Ham: Krafth - Fernandez - Clark

v Villa: Schar - Lascelles - Fernandez (2 changes)

v Southampton: Schar - Lascelles - Fernandes (0 changes)

v Man U: Lascelles - Clark - Hayden (2 changes)

v Leed: Lascelles - Clark - Hayden (0 changes)

v Watford: Clark - Fernandez - Hayden (2 changes)

v Wolves: Clark - Fernandez (Hayden started in CM then moved back when we conceded) (1 change)

So in 7 league games we've had 5 different central defensive combinations starting each match. How anyone is supposed to know who's doing what it beyond me. I'm sure if you factor in changes between Manquillo/Murphy at RWB then it'd be even more combinations.

[quote=Colly post_id=891228 time=1633530916 user_id=125]
Yeah, the daft thing is that Bruce puts Hayden in the back 3 so it doesn't look "too defensive", but Hayden doesn't offer much other than the defensive bit and isn't as good as the centre halves we had. Our best spell with a back 5 was when Rafa did it with Schar, Lejeune plus anyone else as the pair of them were at least as creative if not more than most of our midfield.

Schar blows hot and cold but at least he offers something.
[/quote]
Agree on all fronts. And for as poor as he was at the end of last season, Fernandez and Clark have started this one playing awful.

Yeah, the daft thing is that Bruce puts Hayden in the back 3 so it doesn't look "too defensive", but Hayden doesn't offer much other than the defensive bit and isn't as good as the centre halves we had. Our best spell with a back 5 was when Rafa did it with Schar, Lejeune plus anyone else as the pair of them were at least as creative if not more than most of our midfield.

Schar blows hot and cold but at least he offers something.

[quote="Cabella's Invincible Hair" post_id=891215 time=1633472733 user_id=1471]
We play so many players out of position, in defence especially, it's no wonder. I hope we stick to a flat back four, as I despise Bruce's insistence on forcing Hayden or Krafth or whoever in there, when it isn't suited to them. More so to Hayden, as we massively miss his influence in midfield if he's playing in defence. 4231 with Hayden and Willock in midfield, Almiron behind the forward. Which apparently is now ASM because Bruce doesn't like Gayle. He's far from great, but with Wilson out, at least play the bastard. ASM and Joelinton out wide. Or ASM and Almiron, with Longstaff central and Willock behind the 9. Or Murphy on the right with one of ASM/Joelinton on the left, Willock/Almiron in the hole.

All of a sudden we have tactical options, just by looking at the formation and playing players where they feel the most comfortable. How did that happen?

Edit, forgot to address my main issue which is the defence. I like Murphy as a RWB, he can deliver a ball. Not suited in a flat back four, Manqullo is good enough there. Ritchie needs dropping really. He's been a good, hard working player for is, but he's not a left back. His legs are gone, and his own crossing ability is now suspect. Give Lewis a sustained chance now.
[/quote]

Yeah that's the thing with Hayden, he's the only one who can effectively close down, cut out passes, put in good tackles in midfield and we really miss that when he's moved back to the defence...and what happens...the opposition midfield get all the time and space they want.

Whoever is in CM, whether it's Longstaff, Shelvey (when fit), Willock or Almiron - none of them can do that. Almiron will run around like a headless chicken as he does, but isn't effective at it. Willock is very much an attacking mid so won't be hastleing / harrying the opposition midfield, not entirely sure what Longstaff does now other than run and look knackered, and the only good thing Shelvey is good for in midfield is lazy tackling and not tracking his man.

I don't rate Schar at all any more, he was poor for much of the second half of last season but for the love of God I'd put him in at CB (or Fernandez / Clark to partner Lascelles when fit) and keep Hayden in midfield.

I'd also drop Almiron. If we did go 4-4-2 / 4-3-3 then I'd give Fraser (who had a good pre-season) a chance. Almiron really doesn't offer anything other than energy and running a lot.

I did a vox pop with a few family and friends and the overall consensus was that we're a bit f***ed.

Yes /thread

yeh we're f***ed

We play so many players out of position, in defence especially, it's no wonder. I hope we stick to a flat back four, as I despise Bruce's insistence on forcing Hayden or Krafth or whoever in there, when it isn't suited to them. More so to Hayden, as we massively miss his influence in midfield if he's playing in defence. 4231 with Hayden and Willock in midfield, Almiron behind the forward. Which apparently is now ASM because Bruce doesn't like Gayle. He's far from great, but with Wilson out, at least play the bastard. ASM and Joelinton out wide. Or ASM and Almiron, with Longstaff central and Willock behind the 9. Or Murphy on the right with one of ASM/Joelinton on the left, Willock/Almiron in the hole.

All of a sudden we have tactical options, just by looking at the formation and playing players where they feel the most comfortable. How did that happen?

Edit, forgot to address my main issue which is the defence. I like Murphy as a RWB, he can deliver a ball. Not suited in a flat back four, Manqullo is good enough there. Ritchie needs dropping really. He's been a good, hard working player for is, but he's not a left back. His legs are gone, and his own crossing ability is now suspect. Give Lewis a sustained chance now.

With constantly changing back lines it’s little wonder everyone looks clueless. I’ve already lost track of how many easy goals we’ve given away this season. Attackers get so much time and space. And Bruce’s fascination with playing Hayden in defence is utterly baffling, especially when he has actual centre backs on the bench!

[quote=ALF post_id=891212 time=1633436955 user_id=65]
We are genuinely shocking. We've looked better going forward in recent games but we've got no structure defensively. We're clueless under Bruce. Tactics literally amount to hoping ASM produces and hoping we don't concede.
[/quote]
Hopes and prayers fix everything right? Right?

I'll admit our matches have been consistently more entertaining than in past seasons, unfortunately for better and worse. Because you never know which CB is going to shut-off next and let someone make an unmarked run in behind or through the box for an easy goal.

We are genuinely shocking. We've looked better going forward in recent games but we've got no structure defensively. We're clueless under Bruce. Tactics literally amount to hoping ASM produces and hoping we don't concede.

Currently on target to get to about 17 points at the current rate <laugh>

Can't see us winning until we play Norwich on 01st December.

We've got Spurs (H), Palace (A), Chelsea (H), Brighton (A), Brentford (H) and Arsenal (A) before that. Maybe draws against Palace and Brentford but can't see much more.

Norwich & Burnley at home before an awful fixture run in December are absolutely key - we're already at the stage where we have to get 6 points from those two games.

Part of me hopes we go to Brighton and get absolutely battered again as we did last season. It'll be final proof (not that any more is needed) that whatever Bruce claims to be working towards isn't happening and we're no better off than when we played Brighton 6/7 months ago.

I think Watford away is key too. A not great Wolves team went there and won 2-0, yes they beat Norwich but I don't think that's really a massive surprise.

Statistically it appears we are sinking a lot faster compared to last season at the same stage.
Strangely it looks that we have a better first eleven however the injuries and playing out of position combined with reported player disharmony place us in a very concerning position.
I think the next game ( a right ugly challenge away ) to Watford will tell us a lot more.
An away win puts us kind of back on par with last season, ( a loss would be very damaging ) but it appears IMO that this season we are in far more danger of relegation than last term. I think the league is stronger this year than last season.
Speaks volumes, we are undeniably regressing in comparative terms and that frankly tells us what we already know. 🥵
This season for me is hoping for the usual fluke results and continue to hope for the unexpected.
Only by some miraculous injury free run from our top players will the prospects look remotely more positive.

Gr8 thread

[quote="Donkey Toon" post_id=890985 time=1632146300 user_id=69]
That is part of the problem, Bruce persists with a system which doesn't seem to suite his key players. Personally i'd play him as an attacking midfielder. He isn't suited to the deeper role. But in order to get the best out of him we need to press further up the field and there is no chance Bruce will do that. Especially as he seems to want Willock for that role. He needs to come up with something though, otherwise he is wasting one of our best assets.

He sees him daily on the training pitch, he should have figured out how he fits by now. Anybody competent would. But Almiron is one of a number of players he doesn't know what to do with so he shoe-horns them in wherever. Joelinton and Ritchie being other notables. Instead of playing the system he wants to play and forcing his players to fit in he should be working on the training field and coming up with a system that best fits the players he has got. But he seems incapable of doing that. Or it hasn't even occurred to him to try.
[/quote]

This. <applause>

We need to go back to four at the back. Play a system were all our players are in there natural position and it'll make a difference.

Darlow
Manquillo Lascelles Fernandez Lewis
Willock Hayden
Murphy Miggy ASM
Gayle*

*Until Wilson comes back from injury. Fraser, Ritchie & Joelinton can come off the bench to make a impact. Unlikely we'll play this system/formation but it will help us get further up the pitch, high pressure with Miggy having the freedom to go forward and run with the ball, ASM out wide on the left & Murphy on the right both provide pace, width & trickery. Willock as a box-to-box no.8 with Hayden as the dedicated DM. Manquillo is solid enough in both boxes to play as RB, has good energy/work-rate & feel he'll link up well with Murphy. It's debatable who should be our CB pairing but on form Lascelles/Fernandez are the best CB's but there both destroyers so if we want a ball-playing CB then put Schar in with Lascelles/Fernandez and finally LB area.. Lewis may be a rough diamond but I say give him a chance in a back four over Ritchie as he has good pace, energy & even though it could leave us exposed/at risk with him bombing forward with ASM it'll add to our attacking threat down the left & you have to be on the front foot it's better to take risk & reap the rewards even though we lose 2-3/3-4 it's better than a bore draw/limp 0-1 defeat, especially at St.James Park we need to make it a fortress again.

Away from home is a different matter especially against the ''bigger sides'' then maybe go back to five at the back to play on the counter but at home we need to be more positive, be more on the front foot, use high pressure & attack more. Saying all this though it's still very unlikely Bruce will change his ways as he's not that tactically astute or intelligent. Even a 4-3-3 would be better.. something like this could work too.

Darlow
Manquillo Lascelles Schar Lewis
---Hayden---
Willock --- Longstaff
Murphy/Miggy --- Gayle --- ASM

Hayden as dedicated DM with Willock & Longstaff having license to bomb forward in support of Gayle with ASM & Murphy/Miggy supporting Gayle on the wings & providing width.

It's going to be a hard long season.. this could actually be the season we go down or we could end 17th/16th, don't see us ending in mid-table at all unless Bruce is sacked/resigns and we get a tactically astute & competent manager.

I can't see Brentford sustaining their form, Norwich will go straight back down and possibly Watford, Burnley will be in and amongst them, Southampton have enough to stay up as do Palace. So I think it will be a battle for 17th again between us and Burnley, and that's a battle I think we will lose if we persist with Bruce.

That is part of the problem, Bruce persists with a system which doesn't seem to suite his key players. Personally i'd play him as an attacking midfielder. He isn't suited to the deeper role. But in order to get the best out of him we need to press further up the field and there is no chance Bruce will do that. Especially as he seems to want Willock for that role. He needs to come up with something though, otherwise he is wasting one of our best assets.

He sees him daily on the training pitch, he should have figured out how he fits by now. Anybody competent would. But Almiron is one of a number of players he doesn't know what to do with so he shoe-horns them in wherever. Joelinton and Ritchie being other notables. Instead of playing the system he wants to play and forcing his players to fit in he should be working on the training field and coming up with a system that best fits the players he has got. But he seems incapable of doing that. Or it hasn't even occurred to him to try.

What do you do with him though? His work rate is the best part of his game so CM almost works for him. Higher up the field you realise how unproductive he is and you'd rather be playing ASM/Fraser and even Joelinton and Murphy. A better coach might get more out of him, but he doesn't link up particularly well with the front end.