by Remember Colo » Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:27 pm
DavideDuck wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:15 pm
Don Sholeone wrote: ↑Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:22 pm
It's true though and it's not "whataboutism", people cannot be selective about what Saudi investments outrage them, you can have the stance of
"I've mentioned the takeover first so you can't bring up other investments". It's a ridiculous stance, if you are going to make a stand against their investments then fair enough but if you are then do it collectively and dont pick and choose to serve the argument. It's blatant hypocrisy and literally hiding behind percentages and deciding which is acceptable for you and what isn't. Fact is if people are so against Saudi investments then it shouldn't matter if it's 1% or 80%.
I'm not sure if many people are taking that stance. I mean, I consciously avoid using Uber and Amazon, but I'm also happy to admit that I've got Disney Plus (mostly down to me getting hooked after 6 months free through O2
). Everything seems to lead to a stink somewhere along the line; I don't think you could ever totally avoid EVERYTHING that's morally questionable without completely cutting yourself off from society.
However, I don't think me having a Disney Plus subscription completely negates my acknowledgement of the awful human rights record of Saudi Arabia. I think there's certainly a difference between going to matches because it's part of your routine, and actively making excuses for the PIF and waltzing around with a tea towel on your head.
At the end of the day, your average Newcastle fan probably isn't an avid reader of a Financial Times long read (nor are most people), so these issues feel fresh and raw. I think a lot of the reason why people feel this is unprecedented and 'unfair' is down to the place football has in the British zeitgeist. If the PIF buys another stake in a logistics company, few people are likely to notice. However, it's obviously gonna be different when they buy an English football club, especially one of Newcastle's stature. For that reason, I feel like we should avoid getting into the mindset that people are 'out to get us' and perhaps see this an opportunity to shed light on many issues that people may not already be aware of.
That's a very fair and reasonable summary of the situation. To go to the Disney Plus point - I'll make a more direct comparison. When people sign up for Disney Plus, do they meet in the town square and celebrate? Do they praise their investors for their dollars ensuring the subscription fee takes 1 year instead of 6 months to go up in price? Of course not, because their gigantic list of investors aren't a representation of the company or service - nor do its consumers associate them with it. Just as the Saudi interests in those investments differ.
But people rightfully talk about the owners of a football club seemingly every day. Whether it be because of transfer rumours, infrastructure investments, what they wear to the owners box, fans sing songs of hate or love, they give quotes to the media (and if they shy from it are criticised), the list goes on and on. People quoted Sir Bobby when it was convenient to say a club isn't its owner, but I also then saw the same people use the same Sir Bobby quote when they were excited for a new rich owner.
I'd add that I find a lot of Newcastle fans saying that fans haven't criticised Man City, Chelsea, PSG, etc. But these have been some of the most resented clubs in Europe, that people eventually just accept - while cheer against. Their leagues didn't object to them the same way the PL did, but the context and timing was very different too.
Ultimately, we can cry woe is us about the media and fans criticising us, or we accept this is the price of having a rich and powerful owner. It's a very different fan role to be in - we've gone from a fanbase much of the footballing world took pity on, to one many will now be jealous of. And that'll just be part of the territory.
[quote=DavideDuck post_id=891703 time=1633976152 user_id=58]
[quote="Don Sholeone" post_id=891687 time=1633962129 user_id=188]
It's true though and it's not "whataboutism", people cannot be selective about what Saudi investments outrage them, you can have the stance of [b]"I've mentioned the takeover first so you can't bring up other investments"[/b]. It's a ridiculous stance, if you are going to make a stand against their investments then fair enough but if you are then do it collectively and dont pick and choose to serve the argument. It's blatant hypocrisy and literally hiding behind percentages and deciding which is acceptable for you and what isn't. Fact is if people are so against Saudi investments then it shouldn't matter if it's 1% or 80%.
[/quote]
I'm not sure if many people are taking that stance. I mean, I consciously avoid using Uber and Amazon, but I'm also happy to admit that I've got Disney Plus (mostly down to me getting hooked after 6 months free through O2 <fist> ). Everything seems to lead to a stink somewhere along the line; I don't think you could ever totally avoid EVERYTHING that's morally questionable without completely cutting yourself off from society.
However, I don't think me having a Disney Plus subscription completely negates my acknowledgement of the awful human rights record of Saudi Arabia. I think there's certainly a difference between going to matches because it's part of your routine, and actively making excuses for the PIF and waltzing around with a tea towel on your head.
At the end of the day, your average Newcastle fan probably isn't an avid reader of a Financial Times long read (nor are most people), so these issues feel fresh and raw. I think a lot of the reason why people feel this is unprecedented and 'unfair' is down to the place football has in the British zeitgeist. If the PIF buys another stake in a logistics company, few people are likely to notice. However, it's obviously gonna be different when they buy an English football club, especially one of Newcastle's stature. For that reason, I feel like we should avoid getting into the mindset that people are 'out to get us' and perhaps see this an opportunity to shed light on many issues that people may not already be aware of.
[/quote]
That's a very fair and reasonable summary of the situation. To go to the Disney Plus point - I'll make a more direct comparison. When people sign up for Disney Plus, do they meet in the town square and celebrate? Do they praise their investors for their dollars ensuring the subscription fee takes 1 year instead of 6 months to go up in price? Of course not, because their gigantic list of investors aren't a representation of the company or service - nor do its consumers associate them with it. Just as the Saudi interests in those investments differ.
But people rightfully talk about the owners of a football club seemingly every day. Whether it be because of transfer rumours, infrastructure investments, what they wear to the owners box, fans sing songs of hate or love, they give quotes to the media (and if they shy from it are criticised), the list goes on and on. People quoted Sir Bobby when it was convenient to say a club isn't its owner, but I also then saw the same people use the same Sir Bobby quote when they were excited for a new rich owner.
I'd add that I find a lot of Newcastle fans saying that fans haven't criticised Man City, Chelsea, PSG, etc. But these have been some of the most resented clubs in Europe, that people eventually just accept - while cheer against. Their leagues didn't object to them the same way the PL did, but the context and timing was very different too.
Ultimately, we can cry woe is us about the media and fans criticising us, or we accept this is the price of having a rich and powerful owner. It's a very different fan role to be in - we've gone from a fanbase much of the footballing world took pity on, to one many will now be jealous of. And that'll just be part of the territory.
