Weekend football - 20/21 April 2024

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Expand view Topic review: Weekend football - 20/21 April 2024

Re: Weekend football - 20/21 April 2024

by bodacious benny » Tue Apr 23, 2024 8:39 pm

People behind me in FPL have White and Havertz ( I don’t) <cry>

Re: Weekend football - 20/21 April 2024

by beatski » Tue Apr 23, 2024 8:37 pm

We want 6! <awe>

Re: Weekend football - 20/21 April 2024

by originallad » Tue Apr 23, 2024 8:15 pm

Chelsea losing 3 nil to Arsenal. Good for our Euro chances.

Re: Weekend football - 20/21 April 2024

by beatski » Tue Apr 23, 2024 5:18 pm

jpg wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 23, 2024 3:20 pm
beatski wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 22, 2024 8:47 pm

well i remember seeing them. Thinking about it, it will have had to be incorrect offside calls resulting in goals
But that just conflates in-game decisions and match outcomes.
Incorrecrly awarder/ruled out goals are pretty major in game decisions that affect match outcomes though.

It's never going to be definitive proof that things don't even out, but it's got more weight behind it than 'they average out over the course of the season just because'. I remember there being some pretty big swings for some clubs, and the top teams getting more benefit of the doubt than average (which probably won't come as a surprise)

Re: Weekend football - 20/21 April 2024

by jpg » Tue Apr 23, 2024 3:20 pm

beatski wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 22, 2024 8:47 pm
Colly wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 22, 2024 8:36 pm

I've never seen one of these. I've seen biased ones put together by fans who conveniently forget the ones in their favour, and I've seen the "if there's no VAR" table (which isn't the same as "correct"), but surely what you're describing doesn't exist? What's a correct decision?
well i remember seeing them. Thinking about it, it will have had to be incorrect offside calls resulting in goals
But that just conflates in-game decisions and match outcomes.

Re: Weekend football - 20/21 April 2024

by Cal » Mon Apr 22, 2024 9:14 pm

beatski wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 22, 2024 8:47 pm
Colly wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 22, 2024 8:36 pm

I've never seen one of these. I've seen biased ones put together by fans who conveniently forget the ones in their favour, and I've seen the "if there's no VAR" table (which isn't the same as "correct"), but surely what you're describing doesn't exist? What's a correct decision?
well i remember seeing them. Thinking about it, it will have had to be incorrect offside calls resulting in goals
I hope they didn't use lines to determine what was or was not offside <mob>

Re: Weekend football - 20/21 April 2024

by beatski » Mon Apr 22, 2024 8:47 pm

Colly wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 22, 2024 8:36 pm
beatski wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 22, 2024 8:22 pm

They definitely don't though. I remember the table Vs the 'table if the correct calls were made' comparisons
I've never seen one of these. I've seen biased ones put together by fans who conveniently forget the ones in their favour, and I've seen the "if there's no VAR" table (which isn't the same as "correct"), but surely what you're describing doesn't exist? What's a correct decision?
well i remember seeing them. Thinking about it, it will have had to be incorrect offside calls resulting in goals

Re: Weekend football - 20/21 April 2024

by Colly » Mon Apr 22, 2024 8:36 pm

beatski wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 22, 2024 8:22 pm
jpg wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 22, 2024 6:55 pm
 VAR just hasn't been worth the trade off and the game is worse off for it imo. Any level-headed fan would have told you that decisions even themselves over the course of a season. It's unquestionably taken the joy out of celebrating a goal as everything now has to be reviewed - for the ref to then spend minutes in some cases trying to find fault.
They definitely don't though. I remember the table Vs the 'table if the correct calls were made' comparisons
I've never seen one of these. I've seen biased ones put together by fans who conveniently forget the ones in their favour, and I've seen the "if there's no VAR" table (which isn't the same as "correct"), but surely what you're describing doesn't exist? What's a correct decision?

Re: Weekend football - 20/21 April 2024

by beatski » Mon Apr 22, 2024 8:22 pm

jpg wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 22, 2024 6:55 pm
 VAR just hasn't been worth the trade off and the game is worse off for it imo. Any level-headed fan would have told you that decisions even themselves over the course of a season. It's unquestionably taken the joy out of celebrating a goal as everything now has to be reviewed - for the ref to then spend minutes in some cases trying to find fault.
They definitely don't though. I remember the table Vs the 'table if the correct calls were made' comparisons

Re: Weekend football - 20/21 April 2024

by jpg » Mon Apr 22, 2024 6:55 pm

VAR just hasn't been worth the trade off and the game is worse off for it imo. Any level-headed fan would have told you that decisions even themselves over the course of a season. It's unquestionably taken the joy out of celebrating a goal as everything now has to be reviewed - for the ref to then spend minutes in some cases trying to find fault.

Re: Weekend football - 20/21 April 2024

by Remember Colo » Mon Apr 22, 2024 6:25 pm

I agree with the overall points everyone is making, and even think for offsides there should be more margin of error built into the system - false precision is an issue I get annoyed with in all walks of life. But, I disagree with the pretense that fans and clubs would be more accepting of human error in absence of VAR. HD and now 4K quality tv, combined with social media, 24 sports news, etc. already led to outrageous levels of scrutiny of every call - long before the introduction of VAR, and it feels like VAR has just been an easier lightning rod to blame, and anytime you layer on a new additional process and it still fails, the more criticism it'll (rightfully) generate.

Re: Weekend football - 20/21 April 2024

by bodacious benny » Mon Apr 22, 2024 11:03 am

I mean Liverpool practically threatened PGMOL after the Spurs game earlier this season, and nothing was done to them…

Re: Weekend football - 20/21 April 2024

by Colly » Mon Apr 22, 2024 10:44 am

Finally seen the highlights, first two aren't pens, 3rd one probably is. Clattenburg has doubled down in his Daily Mail column (yes, that is a thing) in an article that at no point mentions he's a Nottingham Forest employee. I actually hope the league throws the book at them, it's Arteta level embarrassing and they don't have the language excuse.

Re: Weekend football - 20/21 April 2024

by Don Sholeone » Sun Apr 21, 2024 9:54 pm

Offsides should never have had the lines imo, should have been the naked eye and simply a question of can you say with 100% certainty that's "clear and obviously" offside.

Handballs should have been for deliberate or ones that drastically impacted the play.

Re: Weekend football - 20/21 April 2024

by Colly » Sun Apr 21, 2024 9:35 pm

That's a very good point, realistically VAR came in (eventually) in response to Henry's handball vs Ireland, and it's those absolute howlers that we'd still like to see prevented. Sadly though the genie is out of the bottle and we are now scrutinising everything, adding a second subjective review to the refs initial one, and we'll never row it back. All or nothing now.

Re: Weekend football - 20/21 April 2024

by Don Sholeone » Sun Apr 21, 2024 9:16 pm

A big problem with VAR is how they completely went the opposite of what they said it would be. If they had just stuck to the clear and obvious mantra they hammered on about then a lot of the issues wouldn't have happened.

We went from trying to stop absolute howlers to measuring offsides by pixels and redefining the whole handball rule every single season, over analysing every single 50/50 penalty call. It's become madness.

Nobody ever asked for absolute perfection but then they tried to make it so, now you have so much inconsistency because they have made such a mess of the rules by trying to be unnecessarily meticulous over every single aspect of officiating.

They've just backed themselves into a corner with it now as there will always be an element of human error regardless but now they have put everything under the microscope you are seeing more and more errors that previously wouldn't have been given a second thought pre-VAR.

Re: Weekend football - 20/21 April 2024

by Colly » Sun Apr 21, 2024 8:38 pm

<ok>

Case in point is our goal v Arsenal, 3 separate checks over 4 minutes, goal still stands, Arteta goes mental, independent panel later agree it was fine. Arteta got away with it with his hilarious "no hablo Ingles" routine, Forest won't.

Re: Weekend football - 20/21 April 2024

by bodacious benny » Sun Apr 21, 2024 7:39 pm

Colly wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 21, 2024 6:54 pm
 But you're saying they're rerefereeing, if there's no VAR there the outcome is the same, no penalty. So what's the solution, another layer of VAR (that won't improve things) or an acceptance that referees will make mistakes?
Ok probably a bad example, but pick any example where the ref has allowed a goal only for VaR to overturn the goal based on something subjective or bollocks.

Personally I’d take the “accept that referees make mistakes” rather than having some bloke sat in a room hundreds of miles away watching umpteen replays in super slow motion to disallow goals, while fans sit waiting for 2/3/4 minutes for a decision.

Re: Weekend football - 20/21 April 2024

by Colly » Sun Apr 21, 2024 6:54 pm

But you're saying they're rerefereeing, if there's no VAR there the outcome is the same, no penalty. So what's the solution, another layer of VAR (that won't improve things) or an acceptance that referees will make mistakes?

Re: Weekend football - 20/21 April 2024

by bodacious benny » Sun Apr 21, 2024 6:42 pm

Colly wrote: ↑
Sun Apr 21, 2024 6:35 pm
 Which goal? The Wolves one I remember from that game was the penalty not given, in which case they definitely didn't rereferee it via the "high bar" for intervention.

It's the other issue with VAR, there's definitely an element of refs being nervous to make a clanger and "leaving it" to VAR, which then finds it's not enough of an error to overturn. Those post match panels of ex pros are often 3-2 on decisions (after multiple viewings under no live pressure), but we still can't accept that in some cases there isn't a "correct" decision, and in many cases fans would be far more accepting of the on field refs decision when he isn't scared of doing so.
I’d say missing a penalty should have fallen under the high bar. The keeper’ completely cleaned out the wolves player, it was a stone wall penalty all day.

And they’ve gone against their own “high bar” on numerous occasions this season to re-referee the game based on innocuous blocks etc. There is absolutely no consistency week to week, it’s laughable.

Fully agree that there will always be subjective calls in football, but some decisions have been outright abysmal.

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