Man United & Liverpool lead 18 club Prem Proposal

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Re: Man United & Liverpool lead 18 club Prem Proposal

Post by Bodacious Benny » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:35 am

Remember Colo wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:47 am
Bodacious Benny wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:09 pm
The two bits I like are scrapping the community shield (pointless friendly) and putting the 3rd bottom PL team into the championship playoffs.

To give 9 teams “special voting rights” is bollocks as it just means they’d vote through whatever changes they wanted, and the £250m immediate payment to the EFL in the middle of the coronavirus pandemic is essentially just trying to blackmail them by saying if you don’t take this then you could go bust.
Sure, it's a pointless friendly, but the clubs participating would be playing a pointless friendly that weekend anyway - so what's the harm in keeping the tradition? And my issue with that playoffs structure is that the gulf in revenue/budget is so wide between the PL and Championship that it puts the PL 16th place club at such an advantage and serves as just another way to consolidate power among PL clubs (and an offering to try and get the existing lower table sides potentially on board).
I'd actually say that finances aside, the gap in footballing ability between top end Championship and bottom end PL has shrunk massively over the past few years or more. There's not much in it now. Historically you'd predict/expect all promoted teams to go straight back down, but if you look at the past 5 seasons:

14/15: Bournemouth, Watford and Norwich came up, only Norwich went straight back down and the other two had 5 years in the PL.

15/16: Burnley, Boro and Hull came up, Burnely survived and are still in the PL.

16/17: Us, Brighton and Huddersfield came up - all three survived and 2/3 still in PL now.

17/18: Wolves, Cardiff and Fulham came up, Wolves stayed up and are still in the PL.

18/19: Norwich, Sheffield Utd and Villa came up, only Norwich went straight back down.

So of the 15 promoted teams, 9 stayed in the PL for one season with 6 going straight back down. The gulf in finances may be there for sure, but the gulf in footballing ability isn't.
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Re: Man United & Liverpool lead 18 club Prem Proposal

Post by biggeordiedave » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:01 am

I don't know if the 16th place club would have such a big advantage. If I think back to all of the seasons where we have scraped survival in the last few games, I don't think I would ever have been confident we would beat a side that had just finished a good season in the Championship.
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Re: Man United & Liverpool lead 18 club Prem Proposal

Post by Colback's Orange Tufts » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:06 am

biggeordiedave wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:01 am
I don't know if the 16th place club would have such a big advantage. If I think back to all of the seasons where we have scraped survival in the last few games, I don't think I would ever have been confident we would beat a side that had just finished a good season in the Championship.
yeah at that point your confidence is shot and the pressure is immense, against a confident side with nothing to lose
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Re: Man United & Liverpool lead 18 club Prem Proposal

Post by jpg » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:11 am

Changing it to an 18 team league is just a step towards eventually creating a super premier league with just 10 teams.

Also relegation play offs would just be horrific. No wonder it’s the elite clubs who’d never have to worry about playing in such a fixture are the ones suggesting it.

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Re: Man United & Liverpool lead 18 club Prem Proposal

Post by Bodacious Benny » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:32 am

jpg wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:11 am
Changing it to an 18 team league is just a step towards eventually creating a super premier league with just 10 teams.

Also relegation play offs would just be horrific. No wonder it’s the elite clubs who’d never have to worry about playing in such a fixture are the ones suggesting it.
Works in other countries e.g. Bundesliga. Surely the PL clubs would be in favour? At the moment, if you finish 3rd bottom you are guaranteed to be relegated. Under the new proposal if you finish 3rd bottom there's a chance that you'll be in the PL the following season.
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Re: Man United & Liverpool lead 18 club Prem Proposal

Post by Bodacious Benny » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:32 am

biggeordiedave wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:01 am
I don't know if the 16th place club would have such a big advantage. If I think back to all of the seasons where we have scraped survival in the last few games, I don't think I would ever have been confident we would beat a side that had just finished a good season in the Championship.
And this <laugh>
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Re: Man United & Liverpool lead 18 club Prem Proposal

Post by jpg » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:45 am

Bodacious Benny wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:32 am
jpg wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:11 am
Changing it to an 18 team league is just a step towards eventually creating a super premier league with just 10 teams.

Also relegation play offs would just be horrific. No wonder it’s the elite clubs who’d never have to worry about playing in such a fixture are the ones suggesting it.
Works in other countries e.g. Bundesliga. Surely the PL clubs would be in favour? At the moment, if you finish 3rd bottom you are guaranteed to be relegated. Under the new proposal if you finish 3rd bottom there's a chance that you'll be in the PL the following season.
I’ve not really got a problem with the current relegation format. I don’t like the idea of the PL team stinking up the league for another season at the expense of a championship club.

Im pretty sure this actually happened in Germany. Hamburg were in the relegation play off maybe two or three years in a row and kept getting away with survival until they eventually got relegated.

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Re: Man United & Liverpool lead 18 club Prem Proposal

Post by Bodacious Benny » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:53 am

jpg wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:45 am
Bodacious Benny wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:32 am


Works in other countries e.g. Bundesliga. Surely the PL clubs would be in favour? At the moment, if you finish 3rd bottom you are guaranteed to be relegated. Under the new proposal if you finish 3rd bottom there's a chance that you'll be in the PL the following season.
I’ve not really got a problem with the current relegation format. I don’t like the idea of the PL team stinking up the league for another season at the expense of a championship club.

Im pretty sure this actually happened in Germany. Hamburg were in the relegation play off maybe two or three years in a row and kept getting away with survival until they eventually got relegated.
I don't actually think that it'll ever happen in this country tbf.

Best league to play in is the Scottish Second Division - no relegation <laugh>
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Re: Man United & Liverpool lead 18 club Prem Proposal

Post by Colback's Orange Tufts » Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:37 pm

https://www.arsenaltrust.org/feed/news/ ... %20picture supporters trusts if the big six come out against the voting changes
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Re: Man United & Liverpool lead 18 club Prem Proposal

Post by HowayTheLads » Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:11 pm

Personally I think a lot of this stinks as opposed to the odd bit here and there. The voting aspect is obviously the worst part of it and an attempt for the current, and I emphasise the word current, to consolidate their positions at the top of the league. As Ellis James said yesterday, in his lifetime Nottingham Forest, Everton and Aston Villa have been among the best teams in Europe during his lifetime. The top six is fluid and an attempt to pull up the ladder is shocking.

But for me it doesn't end there. So much more is about aiding the few to secure their positions. Let's be clear, the scrapping of the the Community Shield, League Cup and reducing the league numbers only aids those teams at the top. The reduced cup and league games allow thenm to take part in an expanded Champions League with its greater revenue and more lucrative pre-season tours than the Community Shield allows, meaning more money in the pockets of the richest and reduced chances of revenue for the other clubs. It's one less trophy for smaller teams to win (though, granted, Man City have dominated the EFL Cup in recent years) and that chance into Europe. I often have this argument with friends who say the EFL Cup is pointless and no one cares. If they could show me one footballer who won it and didn't care, I'd be amazed.

I'm furious about this and the absolutely chutzpah of two of the league's clubs owners to dress this up as a measure to help EFL clubs. I'm delighted their fans have come out against the voting proposals but I hope the FA, PL and Government ensure this doesn't see the light of day. Even if some of the elements remain then they will have given the biggest clubs the scent that they will be able to achieve all they want in a few years when the next financial crisis comes around.

If these proposals do happen then that's me and football done.
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Re: Man United & Liverpool lead 18 club Prem Proposal

Post by biggeordiedave » Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:49 pm

The best thing they could do with the EFL Cup is stop clubs playing in Europe from entering it, and remove the prize of European football if you win. Problem solved. They don't want the league cup, but that doesn't mean the rest of us who don't play in the CL every season don't want it either.
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Re: Man United & Liverpool lead 18 club Prem Proposal

Post by Remember Colo » Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:58 pm

Bodacious Benny wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:35 am
Remember Colo wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:47 am

Sure, it's a pointless friendly, but the clubs participating would be playing a pointless friendly that weekend anyway - so what's the harm in keeping the tradition? And my issue with that playoffs structure is that the gulf in revenue/budget is so wide between the PL and Championship that it puts the PL 16th place club at such an advantage and serves as just another way to consolidate power among PL clubs (and an offering to try and get the existing lower table sides potentially on board).
I'd actually say that finances aside, the gap in footballing ability between top end Championship and bottom end PL has shrunk massively over the past few years or more. There's not much in it now. Historically you'd predict/expect all promoted teams to go straight back down, but if you look at the past 5 seasons:

14/15: Bournemouth, Watford and Norwich came up, only Norwich went straight back down and the other two had 5 years in the PL.

15/16: Burnley, Boro and Hull came up, Burnely survived and are still in the PL.

16/17: Us, Brighton and Huddersfield came up - all three survived and 2/3 still in PL now.

17/18: Wolves, Cardiff and Fulham came up, Wolves stayed up and are still in the PL.

18/19: Norwich, Sheffield Utd and Villa came up, only Norwich went straight back down.

So of the 15 promoted teams, 9 stayed in the PL for one season with 6 going straight back down. The gulf in finances may be there for sure, but the gulf in footballing ability isn't.
I probably shouldn't suggest that's the case now, but looking forward and especially if this came to fruition, I could see the PL doing everything possible to consolidate more of the wealth and further build a gap from the Championship. We've also seen a lot of clubs in the Championship risk their finances for promotion chances, but how sustainable is that? And it's hard to compare the sides when they're in the Championship (when they would be playing the playoff), and their performance in the PL after likely spending the promotion windfall to improve before the new season. Plus the ones that have stayed up and done well often were the ones in the automatic promotion places, not the ones who would be playing in this theoretical playoff.

Ultimately, the footballing gap may be close, but I don't know why the third-last club in the league deserves more protecting, and the Championship playoffs are already such an incredibly exciting format - why change it for the benefit of a mediocre PL club?

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Re: Man United & Liverpool lead 18 club Prem Proposal

Post by HowayTheLads » Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:58 pm

biggeordiedave wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:49 pm
The best thing they could do with the EFL Cup is stop clubs playing in Europe from entering it, and remove the prize of European football if you win. Problem solved. They don't want the league cup, but that doesn't mean the rest of us who don't play in the CL every season don't want it either.
I agree to an extent, but even then I think ‘f*** ‘em’, this is the CL clubs wanting to have their cake and eat it. If you hit the jackpot of the CL you have to deal with the fact you have to juggle five or six extra games in the EFL Cup if you go all the way to the final. If you’re the manager of one of these clubs this is where you earn the big bucks by showing you can manage your way through it, don’t demand that you be excused from a competition or have it scrapped as you don’t want to deal with the extra work. It’s like getting promoted at work and then moaning you have more responsibility.
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Re: Man United & Liverpool lead 18 club Prem Proposal

Post by Remember Colo » Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:00 pm

biggeordiedave wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:49 pm
The best thing they could do with the EFL Cup is stop clubs playing in Europe from entering it, and remove the prize of European football if you win. Problem solved. They don't want the league cup, but that doesn't mean the rest of us who don't play in the CL every season don't want it either.
I'll go a step farther and say if the top clubs in the league don't want to tire their players in the league cup, don't play them in it. It's their fault they have 50 players out on loan but choose not to rotate their squad enough.

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Re: Man United & Liverpool lead 18 club Prem Proposal

Post by HowayTheLads » Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:01 pm

Remember Colo wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:00 pm
biggeordiedave wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:49 pm
The best thing they could do with the EFL Cup is stop clubs playing in Europe from entering it, and remove the prize of European football if you win. Problem solved. They don't want the league cup, but that doesn't mean the rest of us who don't play in the CL every season don't want it either.
I'll go a step farther and say if the top clubs in the league don't want to tire their players in the league cup, don't play them in it. It's their fault they have 50 players out on loan but choose not to rotate their squad enough.
Agreed.
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Re: Man United & Liverpool lead 18 club Prem Proposal

Post by Bodacious Benny » Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:38 am

Whether football league clubs get a bail out or not, it doesn’t solve the underlying problem of horrendous mismanagement and wreckless unsuitable spending at clubs up and down the leagues. It’s like giving a gambling addict a sack full of cash to clear their debts and solve their problems...what’s the first thing people will do? Straight down to the casino...
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Re: Premier League going Pay-Per-View, £15/game

Post by Bodacious Benny » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:54 am

Was listening to a podcast about this, apparently the 'top 6' would be able to veto the takeover of another club...sounds familiar!

Spurs would also be able to retrospectively claim >£100m towards the cost of their new stadium!
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Re: Premier League going Pay-Per-View, £15/game

Post by biggeordiedave » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:02 am

Bodacious Benny wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:54 am
Was listening to a podcast about this, apparently the 'top 6' would be able to veto the takeover of another club...sounds familiar!

Spurs would also be able to retrospectively claim >£100m towards the cost of their new stadium!
That is 100% f***ed up. I wonder what grounds they could use to block it? Surely they can't just say "they'd be richer than us so...no"...

Just realised we've put this in the wrong thread!
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Re: Man United & Liverpool lead 18 club Prem Proposal

Post by originallad » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:20 pm

Premier League clubs tell 'project big picture' to f*** off.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54545053

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Re: Premier League going Pay-Per-View, £15/game

Post by Remember Colo » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:03 pm

biggeordiedave wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:02 am
Bodacious Benny wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:54 am
Was listening to a podcast about this, apparently the 'top 6' would be able to veto the takeover of another club...sounds familiar!

Spurs would also be able to retrospectively claim >£100m towards the cost of their new stadium!
That is 100% f***ed up. I wonder what grounds they could use to block it? Surely they can't just say "they'd be richer than us so...no"...

Just realised we've put this in the wrong thread!
I think that's the whole point of this, this cabal of clubs wouldn't need to have grounds for the decisions they make, aside from what's best for themselves. Glad this plan leaked and they took so much bad PR resulting in them going back into the gold lined caves they came out of.

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