Armstrong and Toney

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biggeordiedave
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Re: Armstrong and Toney

Post by biggeordiedave » Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:50 pm

originallad wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:55 pm
biggeordiedave wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:38 pm


This. Clubs let players go, some go on to do well, most don't. It's very easy to assume that they wanted to stay here forever and were happy being loaned out until someone thought they were good enough. I don't think that's how it works. We didn't let them go in their current form either. They were scoring a small handful of goals between them in League One and the Championship at the time, and didn't look anywhere near fitting into a Premier League team.
Perhaps they didn't want to stay, perhaps they did. We'll probably never know. But could we have managed them better? Loaned them out to clubs who would have played them more. Given them a few chances in our 1st team.

Saying all that, hindsight is a wonderful thing. We could have done all of the above and they could have turned out complete s****. And tbf, it's only a bit into the season. They've both got a long way to go.
Clubs always get rid of players who end up at a club where it really clicks for them and totally changes them as a player. Look at De Bruyne and Salah. I never watched either of them at Chelsea thinking they'd be in the top 10 players in the world within 4 or 5 years.
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Re: Armstrong and Toney

Post by Remember Colo » Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:52 am

biggeordiedave wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:50 pm
originallad wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:55 pm


Perhaps they didn't want to stay, perhaps they did. We'll probably never know. But could we have managed them better? Loaned them out to clubs who would have played them more. Given them a few chances in our 1st team.

Saying all that, hindsight is a wonderful thing. We could have done all of the above and they could have turned out complete s****. And tbf, it's only a bit into the season. They've both got a long way to go.
Clubs always get rid of players who end up at a club where it really clicks for them and totally changes them as a player. Look at De Bruyne and Salah. I never watched either of them at Chelsea thinking they'd be in the top 10 players in the world within 4 or 5 years.
Chelsea deserve so much stick for how many young stars they paid good money for, never gave enough chances to, soon sold off, and promptly saw them reach their potential elsewhere. The two mentioned, plus Lukaku, Ake, Thorgan Hazard, are others that come to mind. Obviously it's tough when managing the gigantic ranks they have, they may not have become the players they did if they stayed, and sure nobody could have predicted Salah would be the player he is today, but their fault or not, I think it's hilarious they missed out on the players they became (or the money they were later sold for).

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Re: Armstrong and Toney

Post by originallad » Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:53 am

Remember Colo wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:52 am
biggeordiedave wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:50 pm


Clubs always get rid of players who end up at a club where it really clicks for them and totally changes them as a player. Look at De Bruyne and Salah. I never watched either of them at Chelsea thinking they'd be in the top 10 players in the world within 4 or 5 years.
Chelsea deserve so much stick for how many young stars they paid good money for, never gave enough chances to, soon sold off, and promptly saw them reach their potential elsewhere. The two mentioned, plus Lukaku, Ake, Thorgan Hazard, are others that come to mind. Obviously it's tough when managing the gigantic ranks they have, they may not have become the players they did if they stayed, and sure nobody could have predicted Salah would be the player he is today, but their fault or not, I think it's hilarious they missed out on the players they became (or the money they were later sold for).
Yeah but the difference is that Chelsea have the money to shrug their shoulders and go "oh well" and then buy whoever they want (pretty much). And we don't.

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Re: Armstrong and Toney

Post by ALF » Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:18 pm

Remember Colo wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:52 am
biggeordiedave wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:50 pm


Clubs always get rid of players who end up at a club where it really clicks for them and totally changes them as a player. Look at De Bruyne and Salah. I never watched either of them at Chelsea thinking they'd be in the top 10 players in the world within 4 or 5 years.
Chelsea deserve so much stick for how many young stars they paid good money for, never gave enough chances to, soon sold off, and promptly saw them reach their potential elsewhere. The two mentioned, plus Lukaku, Ake, Thorgan Hazard, are others that come to mind. Obviously it's tough when managing the gigantic ranks they have, they may not have become the players they did if they stayed, and sure nobody could have predicted Salah would be the player he is today, but their fault or not, I think it's hilarious they missed out on the players they became (or the money they were later sold for).
Really? Yes with KDB or Salah it can be a bit sore but in general that's their business model. Sign young players, let them prove themselves out on loan then sell for huge profits.

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Re: Armstrong and Toney

Post by overseasTOON » Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:13 pm

If either Armstrong or Toney reach the echelons of Salah or KDB; I'll bare my arse in Fenwicks, s*** in Seat Leon and then cut my cock off.

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Re: Armstrong and Toney

Post by biggeordiedave » Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:34 am

overseasTOON wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:13 pm
If either Armstrong or Toney reach the echelons of Salah or KDB; I'll bare my arse in Fenwicks, s*** in Seat Leon and then cut my cock off.
I doubt either of them will be as good as Dwight Gayle.
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Re: Armstrong and Toney

Post by UlversToon » Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:25 pm

Another goal for Toney today.

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Re: Armstrong and Toney

Post by Captain Obvious » Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:50 am

When was the last time the bloke up top for Brentford didn’t get 20 goals, mind

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Re: Armstrong and Toney

Post by Bodacious Benny » Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:39 pm

Captain Obvious wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:50 am
When was the last time the bloke up top for Brentford didn’t get 20 goals, mind
Maupay in 2017/18 <roll>
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Re: Armstrong and Toney

Post by Remember Colo » Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:01 pm

ALF wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:18 pm
Remember Colo wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:52 am

Chelsea deserve so much stick for how many young stars they paid good money for, never gave enough chances to, soon sold off, and promptly saw them reach their potential elsewhere. The two mentioned, plus Lukaku, Ake, Thorgan Hazard, are others that come to mind. Obviously it's tough when managing the gigantic ranks they have, they may not have become the players they did if they stayed, and sure nobody could have predicted Salah would be the player he is today, but their fault or not, I think it's hilarious they missed out on the players they became (or the money they were later sold for).
Really? Yes with KDB or Salah it can be a bit sore but in general that's their business model. Sign young players, let them prove themselves out on loan then sell for huge profits.
Sure, but the issue with those examples is that they didn't sell them for massive profits, the team they'd sold them to did. And they had to pay massive prices recently to try and find the talent in those positions they'd already have had they kept them. I'm not arguing with their model, I'm just saying they've recently had the misfortune of missing out on some big talents they had in their ranks.

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Re: Armstrong and Toney

Post by UlversToon » Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:45 pm

UlversToon wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:25 pm
Another goal for Toney today.
..and another one tonight - that's 10 in The Championship so far this season.

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Re: Armstrong and Toney

Post by Bodacious Benny » Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:18 am

Until he gets 20+ in 2 or 3 consecutive Championship seasons I don't think we can read too much into it, other than he's developing very well. Lewis Grabban got 20 goals in the Championship last season.
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Re: Armstrong and Toney

Post by ALF » Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:15 pm

Bodacious Benny wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:18 am
Until he gets 20+ in 2 or 3 consecutive Championship seasons I don't think we can read too much into it, other than he's developing very well. Lewis Grabban got 20 goals in the Championship last season.
To be fair to Toney he's scored 59 goals since he left us in August 2018. Armstrong is a little different as he's only kicked on over the last 12 months but Toney has delivered consistently for a while now even if it has been in League 1 and the Championship.

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Re: Armstrong and Toney

Post by Bodacious Benny » Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:13 pm

ALF wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:15 pm
Bodacious Benny wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:18 am
Until he gets 20+ in 2 or 3 consecutive Championship seasons I don't think we can read too much into it, other than he's developing very well. Lewis Grabban got 20 goals in the Championship last season.
To be fair to Toney he's scored 59 goals since he left us in August 2018. Armstrong is a little different as he's only kicked on over the last 12 months but Toney has delivered consistently for a while now even if it has been in League 1 and the Championship.
He’s certainly scored consistently. I was listing to a podcast and apparently Celtic were very keen on him too but long term he’s better off scoring in the Championship and then see if PL clubs take notice.
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Re: Armstrong and Toney

Post by Beatski » Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:47 pm

ALF wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:15 pm
Bodacious Benny wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:18 am
Until he gets 20+ in 2 or 3 consecutive Championship seasons I don't think we can read too much into it, other than he's developing very well. Lewis Grabban got 20 goals in the Championship last season.
To be fair to Toney he's scored 59 goals since he left us in August 2018. Armstrong is a little different as he's only kicked on over the last 12 months but Toney has delivered consistently for a while now even if it has been in League 1 and the Championship.
Armstrong was playing on the wing for a season+, in case you were only basing that on goals. He was really good there as well (got championship player of the month once)

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Re: Armstrong and Toney

Post by Donkey Toon » Wed Nov 04, 2020 7:07 pm

Bodacious Benny wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:13 pm
ALF wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:15 pm


To be fair to Toney he's scored 59 goals since he left us in August 2018. Armstrong is a little different as he's only kicked on over the last 12 months but Toney has delivered consistently for a while now even if it has been in League 1 and the Championship.
He’s certainly scored consistently. I was listing to a podcast and apparently Celtic were very keen on him too but long term he’s better off scoring in the Championship and then see if PL clubs take notice.
Yeah, I think the club horribly mismanaged Toney. Signed him as a bright young prospect, chose to send him out on loans, where he was consistently performing very well and then sold him on without ever giving him a chance. What was the point?

Also sends a terrible message to our youth players who had to look at that and realise that even performing well on loan to a club selected by the management still isn't good enough. What was Toney expected to do above and beyond what he did?

I'm convinced that we have missed a trick with him. But that is par for the course with our youth development, which has to be one of the worst in English league football.

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Re: Armstrong and Toney

Post by ALF » Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:11 am

Donkey Toon wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 7:07 pm
Bodacious Benny wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:13 pm


He’s certainly scored consistently. I was listing to a podcast and apparently Celtic were very keen on him too but long term he’s better off scoring in the Championship and then see if PL clubs take notice.
Yeah, I think the club horribly mismanaged Toney. Signed him as a bright young prospect, chose to send him out on loans, where he was consistently performing very well and then sold him on without ever giving him a chance. What was the point?

Also sends a terrible message to our youth players who had to look at that and realise that even performing well on loan to a club selected by the management still isn't good enough. What was Toney expected to do above and beyond what he did?

I'm convinced that we have missed a trick with him. But that is par for the course with our youth development, which has to be one of the worst in English league football.
Our youth development really is shocking. How many young players have we produced that have got 100+ appearances for us? In the last decade or so we've produced Carroll and Dummett.

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Re: Armstrong and Toney

Post by Captain Obvious » Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:45 pm

But the point is he needed to get a move to get settled, refocus and develop his game. They player we sold has scored 25 goals in 89 League 1 games. He moved to Peterborough and scored 16 goals in League 1 in his first season. That's not that good. But he learned and improved and got 24 last season which earned him a move to Brentford. And he'll continue to get better at Brentford this season and will likely eventually make the step up to the Premier League. To think we could have just kept him and shoved him in at PL level and have the player he is now or will go on to be is madness. This is a total non-story. He needed the move to become the player we now wish we had. It's like some sort of paradox.

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Re: Armstrong and Toney

Post by Bodacious Benny » Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:42 pm

Captain Obvious wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:45 pm
But the point is he needed to get a move to get settled, refocus and develop his game. They player we sold has scored 25 goals in 89 League 1 games. He moved to Peterborough and scored 16 goals in League 1 in his first season. That's not that good. But he learned and improved and got 24 last season which earned him a move to Brentford. And he'll continue to get better at Brentford this season and will likely eventually make the step up to the Premier League. To think we could have just kept him and shoved him in at PL level and have the player he is now or will go on to be is madness. This is a total non-story. He needed the move to become the player we now wish we had. It's like some sort of paradox.
I think it’s more the point that with smart loans for a few years he could potentially have been brought into the first team squad here if managed properly. Of course when he was with us he wasn’t even close to being ready to be ‘shoved in’ at PL level and it wouldn’t have helped him one bit, but if we gave him a couple of years in league one, then a championship loan then who knows. Surely that’s how you develop (or try to) players.
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Re: Armstrong and Toney

Post by originallad » Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:31 pm

Bodacious Benny wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:42 pm
Captain Obvious wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:45 pm
But the point is he needed to get a move to get settled, refocus and develop his game. They player we sold has scored 25 goals in 89 League 1 games. He moved to Peterborough and scored 16 goals in League 1 in his first season. That's not that good. But he learned and improved and got 24 last season which earned him a move to Brentford. And he'll continue to get better at Brentford this season and will likely eventually make the step up to the Premier League. To think we could have just kept him and shoved him in at PL level and have the player he is now or will go on to be is madness. This is a total non-story. He needed the move to become the player we now wish we had. It's like some sort of paradox.
I think it’s more the point that with smart loans for a few years he could potentially have been brought into the first team squad here if managed properly. Of course when he was with us he wasn’t even close to being ready to be ‘shoved in’ at PL level and it wouldn’t have helped him one bit, but if we gave him a couple of years in league one, then a championship loan then who knows. Surely that’s how you develop (or try to) players.
This. Youth development takes time. Not everyone is a wonder kid who can slot straight into the 1st team. We persevered with Sean Longstaff, so I'm not sure what went wrong with Armstrong and Toney.

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