Blizzard article on Ben Arfa

[Colly]

I tend not to post many threads, and even fewer that are just links to articles, but this is a good one. For those unaware The Blizzard is a football quarterly that tries to be a bit more expansive than most football journalism, and has a really wide focus rather than just concentrating on the now. They gather stories from loads of top football writers including the likes of Tim Vickery. I bought the first few, then sort of forgot about it and now they're up to 31...

Anyway, here's one from the latest discussing Hatem Ben Arfa's ups and downs here and elsewhere and how it could relate to his search for a father figure.

https://theblizzard.co.uk/article/oedip ... gallowgate

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I think Jonathan Wilson from the Guardian contributes for The Blizzard and his stuff is normally pretty good. Will give this a go

[bodacious benny]

Will read that on the train later

What a wasted talent.

[Don Sholeone]

Will read that on the train later

What a wasted talent.

Think it's harsh to call him wasted talent, he's still a very very good player, but there is no doubt that with better guidance and people around him he could have been one of the best, at least on par with Hazard imo.

[Colly]

Surely what you just described is pretty much the definition of wasted talent?

For me he's still the best 5 a side player I've ever seen at the club. I just wish a manager had made him do that bit on Goal where the coach shows him that a pass will travel quicker than he ever can...

[bodacious benny]

Will read that on the train later

What a wasted talent.

Think it's harsh to call him wasted talent, he's still a very very good player, but there is no doubt that with better guidance and people around him he could have been one of the best, at least on par with Hazard imo.

So a wasted talent then

It’s not all about other people, he himself is also responsible.

[Remember Colo]

I guess my first reaction to hearing him called a "wasted talent" is that most often that kind of accusation would be associated with a player who was a complete bust, and not one who has over 350 senior caps, over 65 goals, 13 domestic trophies, and 15 caps for one of the top nations in the world. I don't doubt with better discipline he would have been even more successful, but he's had a pretty solid career!

[bodacious benny]

I’d say ‘wasted talent’ is all relative. Yes, those stats sound good, but he could have been one of the best in the world rather than playing for Hull for a season...no reason at all why he couldn’t have been lifting the World Cup for his nation rather than only getting 15 caps.

[Don Sholeone]

I guess my first reaction to hearing him called a "wasted talent" is that most often that kind of accusation would be associated with a player who was a complete bust, and not one who has over 350 senior caps, over 65 goals, 13 domestic trophies, and 15 caps for one of the top nations in the world. I don't doubt with better discipline he would have been even more successful, but he's had a pretty solid career!

Exactly, hes had a pretty good career compared to most, he could have done a lot worse than he has, sure he could have been better but people could argue the same about someone like Shearer he could have gone elsewhere and won big titles and cups and potentially left a bigger legacy than he has now, being able to reach higher levels than you actually did doesn't mean you're a wasted talent.

[bodacious benny]

I get the shearer analogy, but at least he’ll be remembered as a legend or hero of his club, Ben Arfa will generally be remembered as an enfant terribles.

[Colly]

I don't get the Shearer analogy at all, while Shearer chose to come to a smaller club he never had a disappointing season (injuries aside) and was consistently brilliant until his latter years. Ben Arfa has flitted between clubs, showing occasional glimpses of what could have been in between seasons of petulant nothingness. He didn't fail because he went to a big club, he failed because he went to a big club and couldn't cope. With the talent he had he should have been having the French side built around him and playing consistent Champions League football, but for reasons all to do with his own motivation and lack of discipline he's a "could have been".

[bodacious benny]

To clarify, I get the shearer analogy in that he could have won so much at major clubs if he chose to. So could Ben Arfa IF he had a mentality like shearer. I don’t know but I suspect most of Ben Arfas major honours came in France which wasn’t exactly the most competitive league (and definitely isn’t now).

[Heisen]

Ben Arfa is the definitive case of 'what could have been'. I loved him when he signed for us, but everyone seems to forget all of those games where he'd just stand around doing nothing, or try to beat 4 defenders on his own rather than passing it, or coming back to pre-season a stone overweight. I liked him, but he has reached almost godlike status in the eyes of our fans that he doesn't really deserve given a large part of his failings are down to his own lack of discipline and care. He was frustrating more than anything, and his poor games comfortably outnumbered the good.

Still, watching him, Cisse and Ba terrorise defences for 4 months was an absolute joy and he scored the two best goals I've ever witnessed live at St. James' (Blackburn in particular was absolutely magical). If Pardew had managed him correctly we could have solidified ourselves as a top 6 side in the following years. Instead he chose to alienate him and make him a scapegoat for his own failings at that time. Look at how Sir Bobby managed Robert, someone of a similar ilk to Ben Arfa (although admittedly not as gifted).

[Colly]

For most read all.

That was to Benny, post fail...

[Remember Colo]

Ben Arfa is the definitive case of 'what could have been'. I loved him when he signed for us, but everyone seems to forget all of those games where he'd just stand around doing nothing, or try to beat 4 defenders on his own rather than passing it, or coming back to pre-season a stone overweight. I liked him, but he has reached almost godlike status in the eyes of our fans that he doesn't really deserve given a large part of his failings are down to his own lack of discipline and care. He was frustrating more than anything, and his poor games comfortably outnumbered the good.

Still, watching him, Cisse and Ba terrorise defences for 4 months was an absolute joy and he scored the two best goals I've ever witnessed live at St. James' (Blackburn in particular was absolutely magical). If Pardew had managed him correctly we could have solidified ourselves as a top 6 side in the following years. Instead he chose to alienate him and make him a scapegoat for his own failings at that time. Look at how Sir Bobby managed Robert, someone of a similar ilk to Ben Arfa (although admittedly not as gifted).

I think that's all fair, and emphasizing your second paragraph, we've had years now of boring, drab and forgettable football, and I guess speaking for myself, I can overlook his mediocre performances because most of the players in that time weren't capable of anything better than mediocre, while he at least provided some excitement and memorable goals that I still remember years later. Nonetheless, I understand that when you demonstrate having the skill he has, it's all the more disappointing when they can't replicate it often enough.

[Heisen]

Ben Arfa is the definitive case of 'what could have been'. I loved him when he signed for us, but everyone seems to forget all of those games where he'd just stand around doing nothing, or try to beat 4 defenders on his own rather than passing it, or coming back to pre-season a stone overweight. I liked him, but he has reached almost godlike status in the eyes of our fans that he doesn't really deserve given a large part of his failings are down to his own lack of discipline and care. He was frustrating more than anything, and his poor games comfortably outnumbered the good.

Still, watching him, Cisse and Ba terrorise defences for 4 months was an absolute joy and he scored the two best goals I've ever witnessed live at St. James' (Blackburn in particular was absolutely magical). If Pardew had managed him correctly we could have solidified ourselves as a top 6 side in the following years. Instead he chose to alienate him and make him a scapegoat for his own failings at that time. Look at how Sir Bobby managed Robert, someone of a similar ilk to Ben Arfa (although admittedly not as gifted).

I think that's all fair, and emphasizing your second paragraph, we've had years now of boring, drab and forgettable football, and I guess speaking for myself, I can overlook his mediocre performances because most of the players in that time weren't capable of anything better than mediocre, while he at least provided some excitement and memorable goals that I still remember years later. Nonetheless, I understand that when you demonstrate having the skill he has, it's all the more disappointing when they can't replicate it often enough.

Spot on, really. With the shower of s*** we've had endlessly paraded through for the last ten decades, it's very easy to become attached to a player who, for however briefly, lit up the place with his skill. I just wish he'd applied himself more, rather than relying purely on his natural ability. As somebody above said, with the right application and management he could have easily been a regular at a top, top side.

What I will say is that the team we had at the point was so blessed with talent it's almost astonishing that Pardew managed to f*** it up as badly as he did. He somehow managed a team containing Coloccini, Ben Arfa, Cabaye, Tiote, Sissoko, Ba and Cisse at their peak into 16th place. Impressive.

[ALF]

I miss Hatem

[Speedo]

I miss Hatem

This. He may have only showed up 1 game in 5 but it was worth it for that 1 in 5