Match thread - Toon v Huddersfield

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TJR
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Re: Match thread - Toon v Huddersfield

Post by TJR » Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:05 pm

Blue & Maroon wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:32 pm
Somebodys pinched my sombrero wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:35 am


Can't agree with that. Play like we did yesterday and we'll swamp them. We passed Huddersfield to death and some of our crosses were excellent. We'll go into this game with a lot of confidence.
We did a pro job against a team at the bottom of the league with 10 men but I wouldn't say we were excellent. No way will Burnley give us the time or space to do what we did yesterday. Very different game, going to be very scrappy.
We were excellent.

I agree Burnley will be much better and it'll be a tougher game. However play as we did yesterday and we'll be fine.

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Re: Match thread - Toon v Huddersfield

Post by Colly » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:18 pm

TJR wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:04 pm
Emiliano Sala's Invincible Hair wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:26 am
From the beeb:

Huddersfield's Tommy Smith is the first player to be sent off against Newcastle since Norwich's Bradley Johnson in January 2014 - a run spanning 155 games.

I thought it'd been a while, but that's ridiculous. As for Burnley, even before they beat spurs a draw wouldn't have been a bad result. In good form and hard to beat. With the buffer from the Huddersfield game, a draw wouldn't be the end of the world.
It's even longer since we've had a man advantage. Remy was sent off for us in the same incident as Johnson.

Boxing day 2013 against Stoke was the last time we had a man advantage in a premier league game.
Was that when we got a two man advantage then Mark Hughes got sent off for flouncing his big coat about? Great day.

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Re: Match thread - Toon v Huddersfield

Post by TJR » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:59 pm

Colly wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:18 pm
TJR wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:04 pm


It's even longer since we've had a man advantage. Remy was sent off for us in the same incident as Johnson.

Boxing day 2013 against Stoke was the last time we had a man advantage in a premier league game.
Was that when we got a two man advantage then Mark Hughes got sent off for flouncing his big coat about? Great day.
Yeah that was the game. A classic Hughes meltdown <laugh>

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Re: Match thread - Toon v Huddersfield

Post by Bodacious Benny » Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:04 pm

Loved that game as I worked in stafford at the time with a couple of guys in my office who were Stoke ST holders <laugh>
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Re: Match thread - Toon v Huddersfield

Post by Remember Colo » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:56 pm

Captain Obvious wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:45 pm
Shelvey is so much more than the cross field pass imo. He has what probably only Ki has (Ki to a lesser extent) in that he is always available to receive the ball. In terms of retaining possession that is fundamental. Not only does it provide the springboard to launch attacks but also possession is the best form of defence. It's the single biggest thing that I find holds Longstaff back at the minute - but he's 21 and he will get there I think (and he bleeds black and white and gives his all and blah blah blah he's the next Carrick and can do no wrong etc etc) but let's be real and not forget that Shelvey is a class midfielder, a playmaker and can do things no-one else in the squad can.

Just my opinion though, hey. Game of opinions.
Completely agree. It's easy to forget because he's hardly been fit all season, but for the past several years he was the only player on the pitch who could complete a pass or open up play. I'd say we'd have been relegated without him last season, except we wouldn't have even been back in the PL without him. That said, I'm glad they've been patient in rehabbing his injury, I'm glad we have options, and the current midfield deserves credit too. I just think it's revisionist history to forget how important he's been to any good play we've shown the past couple seasons. Let's also not pretend we've been on some crazy great run of form and there's no room for change as the season finishes out. Plus, Hayden will likely want out again come summer, so he's no longterm option anyway.

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Re: Match thread - Toon v Huddersfield

Post by Colly » Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:41 pm

I don't think it's revisionist, if you could guarantee we'd get the Shelvey who played the second half of last season (you're right, he was instrumental along with Dubravka and Lejeune in keeping us up) rather than the one who played most of last season and his few appearances this time round I'd be happy to chuck him in. The problem is the difference between good Shelvey and the Shelvey who's defensive contribution is vaguely pointing as his man jogs past him is enormous, and we've had more of the latter in recent seasons. The problem last year was that other than him the squad was utterly devoid of creativity, so our tactics were so centred on his long balls that when he was missing we'd be absolutely terrible, usually chucking Hayden or someone on and expecting him to do Shelvey's job which just didn't work.

We don't have that issue anymore, Ki can do the link up and cross field balls at least as well without the defensive drawbacks, Longstaff is looking the same in recent games, and Lejeune and Schar can provide those deep balls (fnarr) from literally the same position Shelvey played them from, without removing a midfield player from the middle of the park.

I'm certainly not saying get rid, but I'm absolutely saying he's my fifth choice until he can prove otherwise.

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Re: Match thread - Toon v Huddersfield

Post by Remember Colo » Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:13 pm

Colly wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:41 pm
I don't think it's revisionist, if you could guarantee we'd get the Shelvey who played the second half of last season (you're right, he was instrumental along with Dubravka and Lejeune in keeping us up) rather than the one who played most of last season and his few appearances this time round I'd be happy to chuck him in. The problem is the difference between good Shelvey and the Shelvey who's defensive contribution is vaguely pointing as his man jogs past him is enormous, and we've had more of the latter in recent seasons. The problem last year was that other than him the squad was utterly devoid of creativity, so our tactics were so centred on his long balls that when he was missing we'd be absolutely terrible, usually chucking Hayden or someone on and expecting him to do Shelvey's job which just didn't work.

We don't have that issue anymore, Ki can do the link up and cross field balls at least as well without the defensive drawbacks, Longstaff is looking the same in recent games, and Lejeune and Schar can provide those deep balls (fnarr) from literally the same position Shelvey played them from, without removing a midfield player from the middle of the park.

I'm certainly not saying get rid, but I'm absolutely saying he's my fifth choice until he can prove otherwise.
I do agree that we're not as reliant on his passing as we used to be, which is good, and I do agree that he needs to prove himself. I also agree that he shouldn't play as a CDM, because that isn't to his strengths, but I'd argue that goals against has never really been the side's problem under Rafa anyway, it's a lack of scoring. Ultimately I'm curious to see how other CMs play with Longstaff, because Hayden probably is only hear another couple months, and I'm interested to see what he shows alongside Ki, Diame and Shelvey.

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Re: Match thread - Toon v Huddersfield

Post by Somebodys pinched my sombrero » Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:40 pm

About time we had a Burnley thread Toondes?
Supporting the Toon since 1972.

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Re: Match thread - Toon v Huddersfield

Post by Colly » Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:17 pm

Remember Colo wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:13 pm
Colly wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:41 pm
I don't think it's revisionist, if you could guarantee we'd get the Shelvey who played the second half of last season (you're right, he was instrumental along with Dubravka and Lejeune in keeping us up) rather than the one who played most of last season and his few appearances this time round I'd be happy to chuck him in. The problem is the difference between good Shelvey and the Shelvey who's defensive contribution is vaguely pointing as his man jogs past him is enormous, and we've had more of the latter in recent seasons. The problem last year was that other than him the squad was utterly devoid of creativity, so our tactics were so centred on his long balls that when he was missing we'd be absolutely terrible, usually chucking Hayden or someone on and expecting him to do Shelvey's job which just didn't work.

We don't have that issue anymore, Ki can do the link up and cross field balls at least as well without the defensive drawbacks, Longstaff is looking the same in recent games, and Lejeune and Schar can provide those deep balls (fnarr) from literally the same position Shelvey played them from, without removing a midfield player from the middle of the park.

I'm certainly not saying get rid, but I'm absolutely saying he's my fifth choice until he can prove otherwise.
I do agree that we're not as reliant on his passing as we used to be, which is good, and I do agree that he needs to prove himself. I also agree that he shouldn't play as a CDM, because that isn't to his strengths, but I'd argue that goals against has never really been the side's problem under Rafa anyway, it's a lack of scoring. Ultimately I'm curious to see how other CMs play with Longstaff, because Hayden probably is only hear another couple months, and I'm interested to see what he shows alongside Ki, Diame and Shelvey.
I don't care which part of the midfield he plays, he still has to track his man, and while he fails to do so often and we get away with it, it has cost us on occasion. When even Perez and Almiron seemingly can fulfil their defensive responsibilities there's no excuse for a central midfielder failing to do so. Even more so when he's the one who loses it, I can't think of many players with less of a "I'll fix this" attitude than Shelvey when it come to busting a gut to get it back. He can do it, the problem is that he often chooses not to.

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Re: Match thread - Toon v Huddersfield

Post by Bodacious Benny » Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:30 pm

Colly wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:17 pm
Remember Colo wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:13 pm

I do agree that we're not as reliant on his passing as we used to be, which is good, and I do agree that he needs to prove himself. I also agree that he shouldn't play as a CDM, because that isn't to his strengths, but I'd argue that goals against has never really been the side's problem under Rafa anyway, it's a lack of scoring. Ultimately I'm curious to see how other CMs play with Longstaff, because Hayden probably is only hear another couple months, and I'm interested to see what he shows alongside Ki, Diame and Shelvey.
I don't care which part of the midfield he plays, he still has to track his man, and while he fails to do so often and we get away with it, it has cost us on occasion. When even Perez and Almiron seemingly can fulfil their defensive responsibilities there's no excuse for a central midfielder failing to do so. Even more so when he's the one who loses it, I can't think of many players with less of a "I'll fix this" attitude than Shelvey when it come to busting a gut to get it back. He can do it, the problem is that he often chooses not to.
Agreed <ok>
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Re: Match thread - Toon v Huddersfield

Post by Blue & Maroon » Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:48 pm

It's not just about what Shelvey brings to the team, it's about what you disrupt if you drop Hayden or Longstaff, both of whom deserve to stay in the side.

We now have great balance in the side, Shelvey has got a great pass in him but Hayden and Longstaff both keep us ticking over nicely, Longstaff is always available, we now have three players up top who look like they will link up well in Rondon, Perez and Almiron. Ritchie has a great range of passing too.

We are playing a system that doesn't suit Shelvey imo. Hayden and Longstaff anchor us so well. He has the heart of a pea when it comes to stick in his foot in and just doesn't work very hard.

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Re: Match thread - Toon v Huddersfield

Post by Remember Colo » Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:56 pm

I didn't mean to imply we need to drop or change our CM immediately, but I really don't think we've been good enough this season, or even lately, to sit on our laurels and assume there can't continue to be some changes or evolution as we finish out the season. All I really meant in the first place is that I still think Shelvey can help contribute, and likely given injuries he will have to. Am I happy that we've won 3 straight at home and Longstaff and Hayden have played well? Absolutely, and I hope it continues!

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