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Re: Boycott
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:56 pm
by AshleyOutPleez
Many good points have been made here. I want to be clear I too respect both sides. Also, even a 'successful' boycott agaist Arsenal is just a message which will almost certainly not get rid of Ashley.
Having supported this side since I was 8, I have become numb to results. Because of the lack of ambition every victory feels in vain, every good period only temporary, and every talent a certain loss at the altar of a greedy owner.
Having studied economics for a year, feeling like a leading expert on the matter, I am convinced I have learned one thing about large scale companies and businesses. They think only about money. It's a cliche, I know. The bigger the company, the truer it is - only money. Therefore, if Ashley finds Newcastle a good way of making money, I have no faith he is going to sell. When protests and banners bravely fail, we are left with one last option.
I know that TV income is a huge part of what Premier League clubs earn. But imagine, just hypothetically, the numbers we are takling if 52,000 seats, or a majority of them, were to be left empty for a whole season. Multiplied by the pricy prices on tickets these days.
The owner knows that this club, due to the faithful fans, starved with low expectations, is perhaps the best one in the league to take advatage of. I am afraid our loyalty is exactly what is enabling his greed.
If Newcastle fans stood firmly united agaist Mike Ashley, he would have been forced out by the currency he understands the best.
If we could make Ashley loose money on this club, he would be forced to sell, even maybe for a lower price than expected. And I would love for that to happen.
Re: Boycott
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:10 pm
by Remember Colo
AshleyOutPleez wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:56 pm
Many good points have been made here. I want to be clear I too respect both sides. Also, even a 'successful' boycott agaist Arsenal is just a message which will almost certainly not get rid of Ashley.
Having supported this side since I was 8, I have become numb to results. Because of the lack of ambition every victory feels in vain, every good period only temporary, and every talent a certain loss at the altar of a greedy owner.
Having studied economics for a year, feeling like a leading expert on the matter, I am convinced I have learned one thing about large scale companies and businesses. They think only about money. It's a cliche, I know. The bigger the company, the truer it is - only money. Therefore, if Ashley finds Newcastle a good way of making money, I have no faith he is going to sell. When protests and banners bravely fail, we are left with one last option.
I know that TV income is a huge part of what Premier League clubs earn. But imagine, just hypothetically, the numbers we are takling if 52,000 seats, or a majority of them, were to be left empty for a whole season. Multiplied by the pricy prices on tickets these days.
The owner knows that this club, due to the faithful fans, starved with low expectations, is perhaps the best one in the league to take advatage of. I am afraid our loyalty is exactly what is enabling his greed.
If Newcastle fans stood firmly united agaist Mike Ashley, he would have been forced out by the currency he understands the best.
If we could make Ashley loose money on this club, he would be forced to sell, even maybe for a lower price than expected. And I would love for that to happen.
I could use the same logic though, and say if revenues were cut, in his desire to protect his money he may just cut operating costs further. And similarly a prospective owner will want to see strong revenue streams - otherwise they'll buy a different club. So because of his love of money, a boycott could potentially do the exact opposite. He's an incessantly stubborn business man who doesn't like to lose a deal. The marginal annual net revenue pails compared to what a business man can make using 300+ million. Now of course this is just a hypothesis on my part too, but I don't think the path to a new owner is as cut and dry as avid protesters suggest.
Re: Boycott
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:56 pm
by Donkey Toon
AshleyOutPleez wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:56 pm
Many good points have been made here. I want to be clear I too respect both sides. Also, even a 'successful' boycott agaist Arsenal is just a message which will almost certainly not get rid of Ashley.
Having supported this side since I was 8, I have become numb to results. Because of the lack of ambition every victory feels in vain, every good period only temporary, and every talent a certain loss at the altar of a greedy owner.
Having studied economics for a year, feeling like a leading expert on the matter, I am convinced I have learned one thing about large scale companies and businesses. They think only about money. It's a cliche, I know. The bigger the company, the truer it is - only money. Therefore, if Ashley finds Newcastle a good way of making money, I have no faith he is going to sell. When protests and banners bravely fail, we are left with one last option.
I know that TV income is a huge part of what Premier League clubs earn. But imagine, just hypothetically, the numbers we are takling if 52,000 seats, or a majority of them, were to be left empty for a whole season. Multiplied by the pricy prices on tickets these days.
The owner knows that this club, due to the faithful fans, starved with low expectations, is perhaps the best one in the league to take advatage of. I am afraid our loyalty is exactly what is enabling his greed.
If Newcastle fans stood firmly united agaist Mike Ashley, he would have been forced out by the currency he understands the best.
If we could make Ashley loose money on this club, he would be forced to sell, even maybe for a lower price than expected. And I would love for that to happen.
MA has made it clear that he wants his initial investment plus loans back and I seriously doubt he will accept taking a loss on that. He has also made clear that he won't be investing any more of his own money into the club, except as short term loans to help with cashflow but with the loan repaid asap and within the same financial year (so as not to increase the debt balance). This means the club has to be self-funding. All your plan would do is reduce the money available to buy and pay players, which is the polar opposite of what fans ultimately want.
I'd also argue that from my personal opinion Ashley is not the worst owner we've had by a country mile. I'm not going to protest Rafa going because I wanted him gone and I think it counter-productive to protest at a time when MA has authorised spending on arguably the best transfer window we've had in quite some time, what message does that send? … we object to spending money on players?
Basically I don't think the boycott is justified and the proposed method counter-productive.
Re: Boycott
Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:09 pm
by overseasTOON
Donkey Toon wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:56 pm
AshleyOutPleez wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:56 pm
Many good points have been made here. I want to be clear I too respect both sides. Also, even a 'successful' boycott agaist Arsenal is just a message which will almost certainly not get rid of Ashley.
Having supported this side since I was 8, I have become numb to results. Because of the lack of ambition every victory feels in vain, every good period only temporary, and every talent a certain loss at the altar of a greedy owner.
Having studied economics for a year, feeling like a leading expert on the matter, I am convinced I have learned one thing about large scale companies and businesses. They think only about money. It's a cliche, I know. The bigger the company, the truer it is - only money. Therefore, if Ashley finds Newcastle a good way of making money, I have no faith he is going to sell. When protests and banners bravely fail, we are left with one last option.
I know that TV income is a huge part of what Premier League clubs earn. But imagine, just hypothetically, the numbers we are takling if 52,000 seats, or a majority of them, were to be left empty for a whole season. Multiplied by the pricy prices on tickets these days.
The owner knows that this club, due to the faithful fans, starved with low expectations, is perhaps the best one in the league to take advatage of. I am afraid our loyalty is exactly what is enabling his greed.
If Newcastle fans stood firmly united agaist Mike Ashley, he would have been forced out by the currency he understands the best.
If we could make Ashley loose money on this club, he would be forced to sell, even maybe for a lower price than expected. And I would love for that to happen.
MA has made it clear that he wants his initial investment plus loans back and I seriously doubt he will accept taking a loss on that. He has also made clear that he won't be investing any more of his own money into the club, except as short term loans to help with cashflow but with the loan repaid asap and within the same financial year (so as not to increase the debt balance). This means the club has to be self-funding. All your plan would do is reduce the money available to buy and pay players, which is the polar opposite of what fans ultimately want.
I'd also argue that from my personal opinion Ashley is not the worst owner we've had by a country mile. I'm not going to protest Rafa going because I wanted him gone and I think it counter-productive to protest at a time when MA has authorised spending on arguably the best transfer window we've had in quite some time, what message does that send? … we object to spending money on players?
Basically I don't think the boycott is justified and the proposed method counter-productive.
I concur with DT.
Re: Boycott
Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:10 pm
by Speedo
Also Mike Ashley is making no money from NUFC. He’s getting cheap advertising for SD but otherwise we’ve been run to break even for years, and financed when we’re in the Championship. And the majority of our revenue comes from TV and sponsorship not fans.
Re: Boycott
Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:22 pm
by AshleyOutPleez
Speedo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:10 pm
Also Mike Ashley is making no money from NUFC. He’s getting cheap advertising for SD but otherwise we’ve been run to break even for years, and financed when we’re in the Championship. And the majority of our revenue comes from TV and sponsorship not fans.
Of course Mike Ashley is making from NUFC. If it were not for SD, NUFC could have made better money with another sponsor. What I have heard is he paid nothing for advertisment until a few years ago. And even now cheap advertisment = making money from NUFC
Re: Boycott
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:06 pm
by Remember Colo
AshleyOutPleez wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:22 pm
Speedo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:10 pm
Also Mike Ashley is making no money from NUFC. He’s getting cheap advertising for SD but otherwise we’ve been run to break even for years, and financed when we’re in the Championship. And the majority of our revenue comes from TV and sponsorship not fans.
Of course Mike Ashley is making from NUFC. If it were not for SD, NUFC could have made better money with another sponsor. What I have heard is he paid nothing for advertisment until a few years ago. And even now cheap advertisment = making money from NUFC
Sure, the club is missing out on better commercial revenue streams, but don't get it twisted, despite the huge tv and sponsorship revenues of football clubs, they're not running net profits. Football clubs are terrible business investments (if only caring about money) compared to other ways billionaires can invest hundreds of millions.
Re: Boycott
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:22 pm
by omegaprimevkm
There is a big claim that 'profit' is being made by Ashley, because not all of the revenues that are required to run the club (TV, commercial, matchday) are left in the club. He is taking money from the club - it's not possible that a club this size is the only one in the league where the income isn't as high compared to, say, Brighton, Bournemouth etc. They're paying more for players, year on year, they're paying their players more.
The declared accounts can definitely be massaged to hide these aspects.
Re: Boycott
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:42 pm
by Donkey Toon
omegaprimevkm wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:22 pm
There is a big claim that 'profit' is being made by Ashley, because not all of the revenues that are required to run the club (TV, commercial, matchday) are left in the club. He is taking money from the club - it's not possible that a club this size is the only one in the league where the income isn't as high compared to, say, Brighton, Bournemouth etc. They're paying more for players, year on year, they're paying their players more.
The declared accounts can definitely be massaged to hide these aspects.
That is a baseless assertion that makes no sense. The club owes him hundreds of millions in interest free loans. If he wants or needs cash from the club he just has to request a loan repayment, just as he did in the last financial year when £8m (not sure of amount - going by memory) was repaid to him.
As for other clubs you mentioned, they don't regularly outspend us and you are making a massive assumption that their spending is financed by club revenues alone and not including some sort of debt incurment. It is also an assumption that their spending is affordable or sustainable.
This sort of idle speculation is indicative of the irrational negativity rife within the fanbase.
Re: Boycott
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:00 pm
by Tsi
Donkey Toon wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:42 pm
omegaprimevkm wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:22 pm
There is a big claim that 'profit' is being made by Ashley, because not all of the revenues that are required to run the club (TV, commercial, matchday) are left in the club. He is taking money from the club - it's not possible that a club this size is the only one in the league where the income isn't as high compared to, say, Brighton, Bournemouth etc. They're paying more for players, year on year, they're paying their players more.
The declared accounts can definitely be massaged to hide these aspects.
That is a baseless assertion that makes no sense. The club owes him hundreds of millions in interest free loans. If he wants or needs cash from the club he just has to request a loan repayment, just as he did in the last financial year when £8m (not sure of amount - going by memory) was repaid to him.
As for other clubs you mentioned, they don't regularly outspend us and you are making a massive assumption that their spending is financed by club revenues alone and not including some sort of debt incurment. It is also an assumption that their spending is affordable or sustainable.
This sort of idle speculation is indicative of the irrational negativity rife within the fanbase.
I'd also add are they really paying more for players when they pay in instalments whereas our policy over the years has been pay up front.
Re: Boycott
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:03 pm
by Colback's Orange Tufts
Agree with DT mainly. Also.
omegaprimevkm wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:22 pm
The declared accounts can definitely be massaged to hide these aspects.
No, not really. Unless he is classified as an employee (but not a director), then we'd see any cash flowing out. They are full accounts, so short of fraud can't hide where cash is going ("cash is king" etc rather than paper profits).
That's not to say he's not underspending and letting the profits roll to equity, but that's not the same as extracting value, its building value.
The free Sports Direct advertising can be thought of as a Benefit in Kind, for sure.
Re: Boycott
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:08 pm
by Bruuuuuuuuce ()
Hasn't the owed debt remained at the same level though?
Re: Boycott
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:48 pm
by Donkey Toon
Not A Scab (Y) wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:08 pm
Hasn't the owed debt remained at the same level though?
No it has gone up a number of times over the years as he put more in and then last year a chunk was repaid.
Re: Boycott
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:50 pm
by PTAO?
It doesn't take a genius to look at Rangers and see what Ashley is probably doing to us.
I'm convinced he's benefiting off of us through SD beyond cheap advertising. Our kit deals and store sales will all benefit his other companies. I'll buy a 10 year season ticket if I'm wrong.
Re: Boycott
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:55 pm
by Tsi
PTAO? wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:50 pm
It doesn't take a genius to look at Rangers and see what Ashley is probably doing to us.
I'm convinced he's benefiting off of us through SD beyond cheap advertising.
Our kit deals and store sales will all benefit his other companies. I'll buy a 10 year season ticket if I'm wrong.
I wouldn't be surprised if he sold the club eventually that there was a water tight contract in there for him to continue doing so as well.
Re: Boycott
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:14 pm
by PTAO?
Tsi wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:55 pm
PTAO? wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:50 pm
It doesn't take a genius to look at Rangers and see what Ashley is probably doing to us.
I'm convinced he's benefiting off of us through SD beyond cheap advertising.
Our kit deals and store sales will all benefit his other companies. I'll buy a 10 year season ticket if I'm wrong.
I wouldn't be surprised if he sold the club eventually that there was a water tight contract in there for him to continue doing so as well.
Which may well have been the stalling point in past takeovers. All the bids seem to go quiet once they've done due diligence and had the chance to see these contracts. Of course they are then under an NDA.
Re: Boycott
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:19 pm
by Tsi
PTAO? wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:14 pm
Tsi wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:55 pm
I wouldn't be surprised if he sold the club eventually that there was a water tight contract in there for him to continue doing so as well.
Which may well have been the stalling point in past takeovers. All the bids seem to go quiet once they've done due diligence and had the chance to see these contracts. Of course they are then under an NDA.
He's well within his rights to do so i might add as much as it pisses some off.
Re: Boycott
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:36 pm
by Bruuuuuuuuce ()
PTAO? wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:50 pm
It doesn't take a genius to look at Rangers and see what Ashley is probably doing to us.
I'm convinced he's benefiting off of us through SD beyond cheap advertising. Our kit deals and store sales will all benefit his other companies. I'll buy a 10 year season ticket if I'm wrong.
Aye, he gets 90p to the £1 for all merchandise sales at Rangers and he doesn't even own them.
Surely he gets higher than that at the club he actually owns?
Re: Boycott
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:02 pm
by PTAO?
Tsi wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:19 pm
PTAO? wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:14 pm
Which may well have been the stalling point in past takeovers. All the bids seem to go quiet once they've done due diligence and had the chance to see these contracts. Of course they are then under an NDA.
He's well within his rights to do so i might add as much as it pisses some off.
Legally, sure.
Don't know why any fans would defend him crippling the club though.
Re: Boycott
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:15 pm
by Tsi
PTAO? wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:02 pm
Tsi wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:19 pm
He's well within his rights to do so i might add as much as it pisses some off.
Legally, sure.
Don't know why any fans would defend him crippling the club though.
I think it's more a case of debating than defending as there seems to be a mantra not wholly correct when it comes to our owner and the way he runs our club.