Toon Takeover Thread

Will the PIF-backed takeover happen and do you want it to?

Yes it will happen and I want it to
16
41%
Yes it will happen but I don't want it to
3
8%
Unsure but I want it to
8
21%
Unsure but I don't want it to
4
10%
No it won't happen but I want it to
3
8%
No it won't happen and I don't want it to
1
3%
Couldn't give a f***
4
10%
 
Total votes: 39

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The Deluded Pablo Diego Jose Francisco
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Re: Toon Takeover Thread

Post by The Deluded Pablo Diego Jose Francisco » Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:59 pm

Remember Colo wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:40 pm
The Deluded Pablo Diego Jose Francisco wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:32 pm


Some idiot journo thought it would be a cool buzzword without actually thinking through the logic of what it means.
The logic is pretty sound. The very public plans and policy of KSA and PIF talk very explicitly about making investments in entertainment (e.g. WWE) and sports (e.g. football) to improve their national image and profile. It's not some buzzword conspiracy theory, they're very proud of that part of their global investment strategy.
How does investing into sports improve their image? It doesn't, simple as that.

Whether they deluded themselves into thinking that they are doing good by investing in sports and have great success in doing so, that's on them but the whole world will still know how bad Saudi Arabia is (and will be) and thats not going change.

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Re: Toon Takeover Thread

Post by Toondes » Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:04 pm

The Deluded Pablo Diego Jose Francisco wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:59 pm
Remember Colo wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:40 pm

The logic is pretty sound. The very public plans and policy of KSA and PIF talk very explicitly about making investments in entertainment (e.g. WWE) and sports (e.g. football) to improve their national image and profile. It's not some buzzword conspiracy theory, they're very proud of that part of their global investment strategy.
How does investing into sports improve their image? It doesn't, simple as that.

Whether they deluded themselves into thinking that they are doing good by investing in sports and have great success in doing so, that's on them but the whole world will still know how bad Saudi Arabia is (and will be) and thats not going change.
Exactly this . It has the opposite effect although you could argue that pumping x amount of millions will appease and /or deflect away from their past.
I’m quite ignorant as I know very little about SA other than what you can google. Are the human rights still massively poor or is it improving ?
# stolen from nufc.com :)

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Re: Toon Takeover Thread

Post by Remember Colo » Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:30 pm

The Deluded Pablo Diego Jose Francisco wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:59 pm
Remember Colo wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:40 pm

The logic is pretty sound. The very public plans and policy of KSA and PIF talk very explicitly about making investments in entertainment (e.g. WWE) and sports (e.g. football) to improve their national image and profile. It's not some buzzword conspiracy theory, they're very proud of that part of their global investment strategy.
How does investing into sports improve their image? It doesn't, simple as that.

Whether they deluded themselves into thinking that they are doing good by investing in sports and have great success in doing so, that's on them but the whole world will still know how bad Saudi Arabia is (and will be) and thats not going change.
I'm not saying it's a successful strategy, but I (and anyone else) is talking about intent. They spent $500 million dollars for a 10 year contract to host WWE shows multiple times a year. And at each and every one, they do promotional videos showing women now driving, people dancing, tourism advertisements, the royal family sit in their box waving, the announcers talk up how amazing the country and their hosts are, the wrestlers do advertisements and promos praising Saudi Arabia and how progressive its becoming, etc.

Whether it's China, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, etc., countries that have come into wealth in the past century want to be viewed as part of the western developed world, and an approach has been to invest and associate themselves with beloved international sports brands and the heads of business that run them. Suddenly they go from always being presented in their stereotypical environments to sitting in London luxury boxes or applauded for athletic successes.

Now are investments in wrestling, boxing or football actually a good use of their billions? I completely agree with you that they're not. Besides a few idiot tribalist fans defending executions or talking up how they permitted women to wrestle or drive (wow, how progressive), it isn't actually going to change their global status or perception. But it also didn't stop Qatar spending an outrageous sum to host the World Cup.

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Re: Toon Takeover Thread

Post by Remember Colo » Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:37 pm

I should add, I don't think buying NUFC is simply about promotion and association to a worldwide sporting brand and star athletes. I think they also see it as a chance to make money and get into legal broadcasting. Although I'd be curious to know what kinds of conflict of interest rules there are around an ownership group owning a club and international tv contracts (e.g. Qatar hasn't bought an English club, though I think beIN does air Ligue 1).

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Re: Toon Takeover Thread

Post by Don Sholeone » Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:00 pm

My biggest gripe with the word "sportswashing" is it's completely based on assumptions, it's a word invented as a weapon, there is literally no proof sports washing exists. It's literally one group assuming an intent of another group. Sadly the world no longer deals in facts or truths but assumptions of guilt, you don't have to prove anything anymore, you just slap a buzzword on and let it roll.

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Re: Toon Takeover Thread

Post by Remember Colo » Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:02 pm

Toondes wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:04 pm
The Deluded Pablo Diego Jose Francisco wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:59 pm


How does investing into sports improve their image? It doesn't, simple as that.

Whether they deluded themselves into thinking that they are doing good by investing in sports and have great success in doing so, that's on them but the whole world will still know how bad Saudi Arabia is (and will be) and thats not going change.
Exactly this . It has the opposite effect although you could argue that pumping x amount of millions will appease and /or deflect away from their past.
I’m quite ignorant as I know very little about SA other than what you can google. Are the human rights still massively poor or is it improving ?
In some respects, you could say women's rights have improved, like legally being permitted to drive. Though I wonder how many husbands have actually permitted it in their households. And there may be lessened segregation (I think women may now be able to eat with men in some places), but women are still not permitted to travel or leave the country without their husbands/guardians. And yes, they've eliminated some forms of public executions (e.g. flogging), but there are plenty of other types of executions that still are used. And ultimately, political dissension is still dealt as it always has. It could be that the Crown Prince legitimately wants to be progressive, but he'll probably keep running into conservative religious elite resistance, and to date it's kinda felt like low hanging fruit fixes to make good headlines.

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Re: Toon Takeover Thread

Post by Remember Colo » Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:35 pm

Don Sholeone wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:00 pm
My biggest gripe with the word "sportswashing" is it's completely based on assumptions, it's a word invented as a weapon, there is literally no proof sports washing exists. It's literally one group assuming an intent of another group. Sadly the world no longer deals in facts or truths but assumptions of guilt, you don't have to prove anything anymore, you just slap a buzzword on and let it roll.
I appreciate the general principal of what you're saying, and the risk of buzzwords. And maybe a different word should have been used to describe this - or maybe a new word didn't need to be created at all, because it shouldn't be wielded as some evil weapon. But I don't get the general skepticism of this idea though. Like why else would a country buy a sports team but to use it as a political tool? How else can a national investment fund justify spending potentially billions of dollars that they otherwise could have spent on something else that would have a better financial return on investment - if not to derive other value from it?

But don't get me wrong, it's really not different than most super rich people buying clubs as an ego booster to demonstrate their personal status or promote their companies. And for football purposes, we should probably hope that's the Saudi intentions for the club, because that'll mean they're more concerned about success and stardom than simply trying to make money - which as we've seen with Ashley, doesn't make for good football.

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Re: Toon Takeover Thread

Post by Don Sholeone » Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:58 pm

Remember Colo wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:35 pm
Don Sholeone wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:00 pm
My biggest gripe with the word "sportswashing" is it's completely based on assumptions, it's a word invented as a weapon, there is literally no proof sports washing exists. It's literally one group assuming an intent of another group. Sadly the world no longer deals in facts or truths but assumptions of guilt, you don't have to prove anything anymore, you just slap a buzzword on and let it roll.
I appreciate the general principal of what you're saying, and the risk of buzzwords. And maybe a different word should have been used to describe this - or maybe a new word didn't need to be created at all, because it shouldn't be wielded as some evil weapon. But I don't get the general skepticism of this idea though. Like why else would a country buy a sports team but to use it as a political tool? How else can a national investment fund justify spending potentially billions of dollars that they otherwise could have spent on something else that would have a better financial return on investment - if not to derive other value from it?

But don't get me wrong, it's really not different than most super rich people buying clubs as an ego booster to demonstrate their personal status or promote their companies. And for football purposes, we should probably hope that's the Saudi intentions for the club, because that'll mean they're more concerned about success and stardom than simply trying to make money - which as we've seen with Ashley, doesn't make for good football.
They buy clubs as toys, nothing more imo. They have paid more for paintings to hang in their super yachts than they are paying for us. They are essentially buying Football Manager: The Billionaires edition.

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Re: Toon Takeover Thread

Post by Colly » Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:04 pm

But in these cases it's not a billionaire buying a football club in lieu of a new yacht, this is a sovereign wealth fund of a nation. Used for the most part to generate wealth (which it has) but also to further the ambitions of the nation. As much as there are lots of red flags over the likes of Abramovich already again I don't think the situations are that comparable.

Regards the actual terminology, I'll happily say "whitewashing their human rights abuses" but it takes longer to type...

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Re: Toon Takeover Thread

Post by overseasTOON » Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:09 pm

We should reach a deal. They can only abuse human rights for an hour when Joelinton scores.

Boom. Problem pretty much eradicated.

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Re: Toon Takeover Thread

Post by Don Sholeone » Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:17 pm

Colly wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:04 pm
But in these cases it's not a billionaire buying a football club in lieu of a new yacht, this is a sovereign wealth fund of a nation. Used for the most part to generate wealth (which it has) but also to further the ambitions of the nation. As much as there are lots of red flags over the likes of Abramovich already again I don't think the situations are that comparable.

Regards the actual terminology, I'll happily say "whitewashing their human rights abuses" but it takes longer to type...
I'm not comparing states and billionaires, I'm saying Sports Washing has little to no weight behind it, it's not based on facts, it's based on assumptions. Where is the actual proof PIF are buying us to cover up human rights abuses?

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Re: Toon Takeover Thread

Post by Colly » Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:56 pm

There isn't any because you can't prove intent, but what's the alternative hypothesis? You've just suggested as a toy, but wealth funds tend not to be interested in toys to the extent a random billionaire is.

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Re: Toon Takeover Thread

Post by Remember Colo » Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:26 pm

I'd also argue their Vision 2030 Plan is pretty clear about their gigantic investments in sports and entertainment to raise their national profile and reputation. Does any of this mean it should be blocked by the PL on those grounds? I'm not saying that at all. I just have some reservations until I see how the KSA will utilise the club for their interests. Well paying sponsorship? Sure, great, all for it! Heavy handed promotional efforts? I'll probably be less cool with it.

That said, I've come to terms with the sale happening, and will give the benefit of the doubt that it'll be a hands off, subtle presence until proven otherwise.

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Re: Toon Takeover Thread

Post by Toon Ireland » Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:52 pm

We'll surely find out before the end of the season if the Saudi bid gets the green light or not, won't we? This is turning out to be fairly convoluted process, almost every day there are reports of more damning info regarding the people in charge and now a potential new buyer, it's hard to know what to believe, anyone starting to think Mike will still be here next season?
I still think the Saudi bid will go through but you never know, these delays can have big ripple effects with regards transfers and contracts and all that jazz

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Re: Toon Takeover Thread

Post by HowayTheLads » Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:20 pm

My feeling has always been the PL have wanted to get through project restart and some rounds of games first, both to ensure their plan is working and also to have some actual football news in the headlines, particularly when Liverpool win the league. Then they announced the decision. Nothing to base this on other than gut instinct and it’s what I’d do in their position.
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Re: Toon Takeover Thread

Post by Don Sholeone » Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:35 pm

Right now I can see them trying to come to a compromise with Bein. No doubt their threats are having an impact which puts Premier League in a really bad light and sends a bad message. I think dragging their heels like they have, has made a PR nightmare no matter what they do. They either accept and get the current criticisms, or they reject and become accused of pandering to Bein and Qatari interests. They've well and truly screwed themselves imo.

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Re: Toon Takeover Thread

Post by Remember Colo » Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:29 pm

Don Sholeone wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:35 pm
Right now I can see them trying to come to a compromise with Bein. No doubt their threats are having an impact which puts Premier League in a really bad light and sends a bad message. I think dragging their heels like they have, has made a PR nightmare no matter what they do. They either accept and get the current criticisms, or they reject and become accused of pandering to Bein and Qatari interests. They've well and truly screwed themselves imo.
I still think people putting it all on Qatar are understating the issue. The Premier League now has 9.2 billion pounds of domestic and international TV contract revenue committed over a 3 year period, spread over 100+ different national contracts - only some of which are beIN. There are a lot of broadcast partners who would rightfully be pissed they're spending millions-billions for something the Saudis are stealing and distributing for their own profit.

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Re: Toon Takeover Thread

Post by TJR » Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:23 pm

Remember Colo wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:29 pm
Don Sholeone wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:35 pm
Right now I can see them trying to come to a compromise with Bein. No doubt their threats are having an impact which puts Premier League in a really bad light and sends a bad message. I think dragging their heels like they have, has made a PR nightmare no matter what they do. They either accept and get the current criticisms, or they reject and become accused of pandering to Bein and Qatari interests. They've well and truly screwed themselves imo.
I still think people putting it all on Qatar are understating the issue. The Premier League now has 9.2 billion pounds of domestic and international TV contract revenue committed over a 3 year period, spread over 100+ different national contracts - only some of which are beIN. There are a lot of broadcast partners who would rightfully be pissed they're spending millions-billions for something the Saudis are stealing and distributing for their own profit.
It's because BeIn have the rights in the region Saudi Arabia are in. The likes of Sky aren't bothered because they dont lose out on any revenue as a result of it. It's BeIn that are which is why they're so vocal against it.

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Re: Toon Takeover Thread

Post by Remember Colo » Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:37 pm

TJR wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:23 pm
Remember Colo wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:29 pm

I still think people putting it all on Qatar are understating the issue. The Premier League now has 9.2 billion pounds of domestic and international TV contract revenue committed over a 3 year period, spread over 100+ different national contracts - only some of which are beIN. There are a lot of broadcast partners who would rightfully be pissed they're spending millions-billions for something the Saudis are stealing and distributing for their own profit.
It's because BeIn have the rights in the region Saudi Arabia are in. The likes of Sky aren't bothered because they dont lose out on any revenue as a result of it. It's BeIn that are which is why they're so vocal against it.
Sure, it's beIN that loses the money in this instance. But it sets a horrible precedent that you can undercut a broadcaster's regional contract and then be rewarded by getting a club and cut of the revenue too. If the PL shows an unwillingness to protect the contracts their partners spend crazy sums of money on, why should anyone pay the premium? That's what the league should rightfully be afraid of the next time they need to negotiate with ESPN, Sky, DAZN, Canal, Amazon, etc. There's nothing more important to the PL (financially) than for TV deals to keep escalating, and I'm sure they're having to weigh the risk that appeasing the KSA, Mike Ashley and Newcastle fans will come at the cost of relationships with a host of big money partners.

I still think it's going to go through though, but I just think they need to make more phone calls to broadcast partners than just beIN, and get the necessary promises from the KSA that they'll prioritize NUFC and the league over the sneaky local broadcasting.

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Re: Toon Takeover Thread

Post by Don Sholeone » Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:08 pm

The reason it's been put on Qatar is because of how focused Bein have been. They have made public letters that make threats to pulling out, they have put out false WTO statements. They have put shows out dedicated to why they shouldnt accept the PIF bid. The reason it's been put on Qatar/Bein is because they are releasing this s*** daily.

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