What's the verdict on VAR?

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What's the verdict on VAR?

Post by Toon Ireland » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:50 pm

We're almost a season into VAR being used and it's had some ups and downs. Just wondering what people think of it and would you keep it or not going forward? Would you make changes to it?

There's clearly room for improvement and it really disrupts the rhythm and tempo of matches. Fans in the stadium (not for the moment obviously) are sometimes in the lurch with regards what's going on.
Me personally, the jury is still out. It's been fairly ridiculous at times. The Sheffield United goal v Villa is a prime example of that but it's still very new technology so it could just be teething problems so we'll see what happens.

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Re: What's the verdict on VAR?

Post by CIH » Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:17 pm

The obvious biggest criticism is the time it takes to make a decision and the uncertainty, especially in the ground itself. The replays need to be shown to the live crowd, and possibly pipe in some punditry/chat from the refs involved as well. Over the course of the season one of my biggest issues has been the over reliance on VAR. It's supposed to only be called on for a clear and obvious error (more on that later), yet at times it's being brought in for very minor infringements. For me the ones that stick out is that Liverpool hand ball where it hit the player's armpit (Firminho?) and the one for Spurs the other day where Moura got bundled to the ground and the ball kicked into his arm.

The Sheffield goal after the restart is an abhorrent failing of the system. Initially it's a failing of goal line technology, and the apparent defence of that was "oh, it's never happened before" which is fantastic in itself. This kind of situation is exactly what VAR is meant to be about, not awarding the goal was a clear and obvious error. It was a blatant goal, absolutely no question about it. Why VAR did not get involved is completely beyond me. Yet they jump in for minor offside/handball/goal infringement stuffs that properly toe the line. I suppose overall it's the general inconsistency of the system that has let it down this season, for me at least.
Last edited by CIH on Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: What's the verdict on VAR?

Post by Colly » Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:26 pm

I'm vaguely in favour of the concept of preventing the absolute howlers that occasionally got missed
but the application has been horrific. No one ever complained about a ridiculously tight offside call, and the majority of VAR decisions seem to be those. Add to that the fact it still makes bloody errors, and the double jeopardy of only overturning "clear and obvious errors" while referees on the field leave things to VAR just adds confusion to the mix. It is horrible having no idea what's going on in the ground (putting the text on the screen at SJP doesn't work when half the ground can't see it. The obvious answer is VAR text on the advertising hoardings but can't touch the precious ad revenue), but even watching it on TV it disrupts the game horribly, especially in a goal fest like the Man Utd game earlier.

Honestly I'd take it back to the suggestion of allowing managers to challenge so that the ridiculous decisions no one would ever appeal just carry on as normal. And add tolerances to the offside system since no one with any sense trusts it's accuracy.

Generally I can live with it, but if you gave me the option to improve something in football with technology it would be the move to 35 minute halves with the clock stopped when the ball is out before VAR. Terrible time wasting has ruined more games than dubious refereeing from my perspective.

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Re: What's the verdict on VAR?

Post by Colly » Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:27 pm

CIH wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:17 pm
The Sheffield goal after the restart is an abhorrent failing of the system. Initially it's a failing of goal line technology, and the apparent deference of that was "oh, it's never happened before" which is fantastic in itself. This kind of situation is exactly what VAR is meant to be about, not awarding the goal was a clear and obvious goal. It was a blatant goal, absoloutely no question about it. Why VAR did not get involved is completely beyond me. Yet they jump in for minor offside/handball/goal infringement stuffs that properly toe the line. I suppose overall it's the general inconsistency of the system that has let it down this season, for me at least.
Massive thumbs up to this.

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Re: What's the verdict on VAR?

Post by CIH » Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:32 pm

Colly wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:27 pm
CIH wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:17 pm
The Sheffield goal after the restart is an abhorrent failing of the system. Initially it's a failing of goal line technology, and the apparent deference of that was "oh, it's never happened before" which is fantastic in itself. This kind of situation is exactly what VAR is meant to be about, not awarding the goal was a clear and obvious goal. It was a blatant goal, absoloutely no question about it. Why VAR did not get involved is completely beyond me. Yet they jump in for minor offside/handball/goal infringement stuffs that properly toe the line. I suppose overall it's the general inconsistency of the system that has let it down this season, for me at least.
Massive thumbs up to this.
I appreciate that, although the quoted text points out some glaring wording errors I have now fixed. I think <laugh> I do agree with the idea of coaches having a limited number of challenges to decisions, in place of the current system. It could make things lively at the very least. Although you could have the possibility for abuse, using the challenges late on in a tight game to try and time waste, in a similar to way in which substitutions are made very late on.

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Re: What's the verdict on VAR?

Post by overseasTOON » Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:49 pm

When it's cold and your nipple is offside then this system is ****.

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Re: What's the verdict on VAR?

Post by Don Sholeone » Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:08 pm

Nothing wrong with the tech its the implementation, I find it an absolute disgrace the PGMOL had to literally be told they were using it wrong, it's pure arrogance from them and Mike Riley. Also the fact they carried on misusing it after the fact is unforgivable, imo. They all need retraining and be ordered to follow the correct guidelines or face the sack.

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Re: What's the verdict on VAR?

Post by Colly » Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:44 pm

Not to defend our refs (who seem to believe we expect them to be infallible), but I've seen the argument "it's just our implementation, it works in Europe" a few times and it isn't quite the case. Dale Johnson is a journo who covers it regularly and put together a Twitter thread a while back explaining how it's not particularly well received in Germany either, though typically I can't ruddy find it now...

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Re: What's the verdict on VAR?

Post by Bodacious Benny » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:37 am

Yeah I think overall it’s not a bad thing and the time taken to make decisions (for the most part) seems to be getting quicker. I would make a couple of changes tho:

- if it is an extremely tight offside call then the benefit of the doubt is given to the attacking side.

- if a decision cannot be reached by VAR working a certain time frame e.g. 90 seconds then the referees on field decision stands. There’s been several occasions where it’s taken VAR 3-4 minutes.
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Re: What's the verdict on VAR?

Post by TJR » Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:30 am

I think the idea is good just the execution isn't great. The referee should be able to use it as a tool to assist him with his decision being final. Similar to how it is used in Rugby Union.

It should all be shown on big screens in stadiums so fans know what is going on. Also the ref and var should have be have microphones on with the conversation broadcast (again the same as Rugby). That would clear up a lot of the uncertainty and if the ref/VAR are explaining decidions in real time it would reduce some of the controversy.

I don't think it should be used for ridiculously tight offside calls where you have to spend 10mins zooming in further than the pixels allow to determine if someone's nipple is marginally offside. In those instances just give the attackers the benefit of the doubt.

Also if they're checking one thing and spot something else just go with the correct decision rather than ruling out an incorrect decision and replacing it with another incorrect decision as the actual correct decision isn't within the remit of VAR. For example in the Shef Utd v Spurs game, Spurs had a goal ruled out because Moura unintentionally handled the ball in the build up, in line with the current (ridiculous) handball rules the VAR was correct to rule out the goal. However the only reason Moura handled the ball was because he was fouled, therefore the actual correct decision would have been a Spurs free kick on the edge of the area. That awarded though and the game was restarted with a Sheffield Utd free kick instead as VAR is not allowed to intervene on the foul against Moura which is just ridiculous. They've already spent ages looking at it so just restart the game with the actual correct decision.

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Re: What's the verdict on VAR?

Post by ALF » Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:16 pm

I think it's a great addition to the game and needs to be persevered with. It's not being used perfectly and there have been some awful decisions but these things take time.

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Re: What's the verdict on VAR?

Post by Colly » Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:19 pm

ALF wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:16 pm
I think it's a great addition to the game and needs to be persevered with. It's not being used perfectly and there have been some awful decisions but these things take time.
Isn't the argument that you iron the issues out (hell, play friendly after friendly at St George's Park, you could use pub teams) rather than just hoy it out at the highest level of the game though?

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Re: What's the verdict on VAR?

Post by Bodacious Benny » Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:27 pm

It’d be hard to perfect some of the issues we’re seeing by using amateur teams as guineapigs. A lot of the contentious VAR decisions are extremely tight offsides, but I wouldn’t have thought many pub teams hold a defensive line as well as professional teams so you wouldn’t really get to perfect the decision making on that.

I’d be more in favour of the rule being that so long as part of you is onside then the goal is given.
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Re: What's the verdict on VAR?

Post by Colly » Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:19 pm

Bodacious Benny wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:27 pm

I’d be more in favour of the rule being that so long as part of you is onside then the goal is given.
That's still the same issue though, you're just drawing the line in a different place, and in many cases would be giving an attacking player a huge advantage if they're running on goal.

The obvious solution if you're using the tech is to do it exactly as they do now, but widen the lines to reflect the fact the tech isn't good enough to measure time/distance etc well enough. If the attackers thick line overlaps the defenders he's onside.

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Re: What's the verdict on VAR?

Post by Remember Colo » Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:57 pm

Have to stick with it. You can't have millions of people watching wrong decisions in slow motion 4K replay at home while officials are left without tools to get decisions right on the field. I agree that the execution has been really poor, which is pretty inexcusable considering how many leagues had already implemented it, in some cases for years already. But the PL didn't seem to have learned anything from anyone else, and instead executed it with obvious shortcomings.

Having said all that, inevitably I think peoples' perceptions are always going to be a challenge, because we naturally focus on the bad calls, forget about the ones corrected, and in some cases will never know some of the bad calls that might have happened without it (e.g. I always hated when referees would wrongly call offside and take away goals - it's hard enough to score already, don't need to bail out defenders who weren't even disadvantaged).

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Re: What's the verdict on VAR?

Post by Bodacious Benny » Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:47 am

I'm the scumbag outlaw. You're the pillar of justice. Neither of us like looking at ourselves in the mirror. Do we have a deal?

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Re: What's the verdict on VAR?

Post by Cal » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:12 am

FIFA has taken over supervising VAR use now, and they want to make it consistent across the world - so hopefully no more malicious compliance from the Premier League. If they don't sort it out, Collina is waiting...
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Re: What's the verdict on VAR?

Post by biggeordiedave » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:38 am

Cal wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:12 am
FIFA has taken over supervising VAR use now, and they want to make it consistent across the world - so hopefully no more malicious compliance from the Premier League. If they don't sort it out, Collina is waiting...
SpoilerShow
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https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-socce ... KKBN24A1LD
That really fills me with confidence. Everyone is struggling to make VAR usage consistent in the same match, let alone across the world. Good luck to them!
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Re: What's the verdict on VAR?

Post by Bodacious Benny » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:06 am

Haha yeah that’s what I thought, as if anyone has any faith in fifa anyway <laugh>
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Re: What's the verdict on VAR?

Post by Colly » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:16 am

I mentioned Dale Johnson earlier, this is a good thread on the FIFA thing. He's worth a follow.


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