The F1 Thread

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Re: The F1 Thread

Post by Bodacious Benny » Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:16 am

Blue & Maroon wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:20 am
Bodacious Benny wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:01 pm
Not the first time a safety car has lead to someone not winning a race they were Leading, won’t be the last.
That's not the point though, we should be celebrating Max but instead we are arguing over and scrutinizing the regulations. It's the manner I'm which it's all happened rather than the result itself.
I was never fussed who won it, I was just glad all season that we had a real battle until the very end.

We did get a lap of racing at the end, and it was a motor race. Agree that as per the current rules it shouldn't have ended the way it did, but the rule is bollocks when in the past we've had to wait another couple of laps for the backmarkers to unlap themselves. With the tech in F1 now it should be simple to just drop them to the back of the pack and sort out the timings on the computer.

From what I've heard, the director did have the discretion to do what he did and it was previously agreed by all the teams.

Merc ballsed up their strategy as much as anything.
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Re: The F1 Thread

Post by PTAO? » Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:50 pm

Bodacious Benny wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:16 am
Blue & Maroon wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:20 am


That's not the point though, we should be celebrating Max but instead we are arguing over and scrutinizing the regulations. It's the manner I'm which it's all happened rather than the result itself.
I was never fussed who won it, I was just glad all season that we had a real battle until the very end.

We did get a lap of racing at the end, and it was a motor race. Agree that as per the current rules it shouldn't have ended the way it did, but the rule is bollocks when in the past we've had to wait another couple of laps for the backmarkers to unlap themselves. With the tech in F1 now it should be simple to just drop them to the back of the pack and sort out the timings on the computer.

From what I've heard, the director did have the discretion to do what he did and it was previously agreed by all the teams.

Merc ballsed up their strategy as much as anything.
You can't drop cars back and say complete one less lap, that would create unfair advantages in terms of fuel and tyres.

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Re: The F1 Thread

Post by Bodacious Benny » Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:54 pm

PTAO? wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:50 pm
Bodacious Benny wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:16 am


I was never fussed who won it, I was just glad all season that we had a real battle until the very end.

We did get a lap of racing at the end, and it was a motor race. Agree that as per the current rules it shouldn't have ended the way it did, but the rule is bollocks when in the past we've had to wait another couple of laps for the backmarkers to unlap themselves. With the tech in F1 now it should be simple to just drop them to the back of the pack and sort out the timings on the computer.

From what I've heard, the director did have the discretion to do what he did and it was previously agreed by all the teams.

Merc ballsed up their strategy as much as anything.
You can't drop cars back and say complete one less lap, that would create unfair advantages in terms of fuel and tyres.
True, but they don't go full pace when released from the safety car do they until the safety car goes in? Not perfect but I doubt any advantage would be significant. The safety car always creates winners and losers depending on where you are on the track etc. when the safety car is deployed, people often gain massively from it (and lose massively) so in the grand scheme of things this would be a very minor potential advantage to some cars at the back.
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Re: The F1 Thread

Post by PTAO? » Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:58 pm

Bodacious Benny wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:54 pm
PTAO? wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:50 pm


You can't drop cars back and say complete one less lap, that would create unfair advantages in terms of fuel and tyres.
True, but they don't go full pace when released from the safety car do they until the safety car goes in? Not perfect but I doubt any advantage would be significant. The safety car always creates winners and losers depending on where you are on the track etc. when the safety car is deployed, people often gain massively from it (and lose massively) so in the grand scheme of things this would be a very minor potential advantage to some cars at the back.
Brundle said yesterday they do actually go full pace.
Imagine you're 10th but 11th place has one less lap of tyre wear and fuel. Even if the advantage is small, you're not gonna be happy when they can push that much harder, overtake you, finish ahead but complete a shorter distance!?

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Re: The F1 Thread

Post by Bodacious Benny » Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:01 pm

PTAO? wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:58 pm
Bodacious Benny wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:54 pm


True, but they don't go full pace when released from the safety car do they until the safety car goes in? Not perfect but I doubt any advantage would be significant. The safety car always creates winners and losers depending on where you are on the track etc. when the safety car is deployed, people often gain massively from it (and lose massively) so in the grand scheme of things this would be a very minor potential advantage to some cars at the back.
Brundle said yesterday they do actually go full pace.
Imagine you're 10th but 11th place has one less lap of tyre wear and fuel. Even if the advantage is small, you're not gonna be happy when they can push that much harder, overtake you but complete a shorter distance!?
There's no perfect solution. What about the many instances where someone ahead has just missed the pit entry when a VSC or Safety Car is deployed and everyone behind them can dive into the pits? They then often lose out massively in the shakeup through no fault of their own. It's just luck of the draw and there's nothing you can do about it.

If they let lapped cars overtake and the safety car stays out for 2 extra laps, that in itself benefits people who were gambling on eeking their tyres to the end of a race possibly, disadvantaging people who had went on a 2-stop strategy to have pace at the end to catch and overtake someone ahead.
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Re: The F1 Thread

Post by PTAO? » Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:32 pm

Bodacious Benny wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:01 pm
PTAO? wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:58 pm


Brundle said yesterday they do actually go full pace.
Imagine you're 10th but 11th place has one less lap of tyre wear and fuel. Even if the advantage is small, you're not gonna be happy when they can push that much harder, overtake you but complete a shorter distance!?
There's no perfect solution. What about the many instances where someone ahead has just missed the pit entry when a VSC or Safety Car is deployed and everyone behind them can dive into the pits? They then often lose out massively in the shakeup through no fault of their own. It's just luck of the draw and there's nothing you can do about it.

If they let lapped cars overtake and the safety car stays out for 2 extra laps, that in itself benefits people who were gambling on eeking their tyres to the end of a race possibly, disadvantaging people who had went on a 2-stop strategy to have pace at the end to catch and overtake someone ahead.
Right, but having someone complete one less lap, thereby not completing the race distance and beat you seems a lot worse than someone's gamble paying off. Plus in that situation, you'd think the safety car would benefit the 2 stoppers by bunching the cars together for them to overtake with fresh tyres.

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Re: The F1 Thread

Post by Bodacious Benny » Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:05 pm

PTAO? wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:32 pm
Bodacious Benny wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:01 pm


There's no perfect solution. What about the many instances where someone ahead has just missed the pit entry when a VSC or Safety Car is deployed and everyone behind them can dive into the pits? They then often lose out massively in the shakeup through no fault of their own. It's just luck of the draw and there's nothing you can do about it.

If they let lapped cars overtake and the safety car stays out for 2 extra laps, that in itself benefits people who were gambling on eeking their tyres to the end of a race possibly, disadvantaging people who had went on a 2-stop strategy to have pace at the end to catch and overtake someone ahead.
Right, but having someone complete one less lap, thereby not completing the race distance and beat you seems a lot worse than someone's gamble paying off. Plus in that situation, you'd think the safety car would benefit the 2 stoppers by bunching the cars together for them to overtake with fresh tyres.
Depends how long was left in the race. If it's a lap, not really.

Masi without doubt made a mistake, but that's what it was, a mistake. If captain hindsight was around of course he'd probably have done it differently but in a hugely pressured situation he made the wrong call, but that's the call he made (and by all accounts had authority to make, like it or not). Doesn't matter who you are, what you do, how much you plan for something, how many rules there are - if there is human input (which there has to be) then mistakes will happen.

Max should keep his title, the important thing is that the FIA learn from it and plan for it so the same thing doesn't happen again. It's not the first controversy in F1 and won't be the last.
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Re: The F1 Thread

Post by Micky Quim » Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:12 pm

Agree on Merc f***ing up - they definitely should have pitted Lewis earlier. But then again they couldn't have predicted what a ridiculous balls up would happen given how close they were to the end

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Re: The F1 Thread

Post by PTAO? » Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:27 am

Bodacious Benny wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:05 pm
PTAO? wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:32 pm


Right, but having someone complete one less lap, thereby not completing the race distance and beat you seems a lot worse than someone's gamble paying off. Plus in that situation, you'd think the safety car would benefit the 2 stoppers by bunching the cars together for them to overtake with fresh tyres.
Depends how long was left in the race. If it's a lap, not really.

Masi without doubt made a mistake, but that's what it was, a mistake. If captain hindsight was around of course he'd probably have done it differently but in a hugely pressured situation he made the wrong call, but that's the call he made (and by all accounts had authority to make, like it or not). Doesn't matter who you are, what you do, how much you plan for something, how many rules there are - if there is human input (which there has to be) then mistakes will happen.

Max should keep his title, the important thing is that the FIA learn from it and plan for it so the same thing doesn't happen again. It's not the first controversy in F1 and won't be the last.

I'm not arguing anything about yesterday days race 😅, just don't think it's right if cars can finish higher than those behind them by completing less laps.

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Re: The F1 Thread

Post by TJR » Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:51 am

There shouldn't be two way communication allowed between the race director and the teams in the manner we saw on Sunday.

The race director made his decision to not allow the lapped cars to unlap themselves, Horner was then able to pressure him into changing his decision. That shouldn't be allowed.

Also once he changed his mind then he has to let all cars unlap themselves before the saftey car comes in, not just the cars between Verstappen and Hamilton. The cars in between Verstappen and Sainz weren't allowed to unlap themselves, therefore Verstappen didn't have to worry about defending his position on the restart and could just focus on trying to get past Hamilton. It should be a level playing field, either all cars unlapping themselves or none being allowed to unlap.

In terms of pressuring the race director, Mercedes were just as bad earlier in the race, asking for there not to be a saftey car. That's not for them to determine.

Same as the farce the other week when Masi was negotiating with Red Bull about changing the order of the restart after the red flag. Race director and stewards should make a decision as to what penalty is appropriate and then implement it.

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Re: The F1 Thread

Post by Bodacious Benny » Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:55 am

Yeah definitely agree with that, Toto/Horner need to keep it shut sometimes.
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Re: The F1 Thread

Post by Speedo » Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:29 pm

TJR wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:51 am
There shouldn't be two way communication allowed between the race director and the teams in the manner we saw on Sunday.

The race director made his decision to not allow the lapped cars to unlap themselves, Horner was then able to pressure him into changing his decision. That shouldn't be allowed.

Also once he changed his mind then he has to let all cars unlap themselves before the saftey car comes in, not just the cars between Verstappen and Hamilton. The cars in between Verstappen and Sainz weren't allowed to unlap themselves, therefore Verstappen didn't have to worry about defending his position on the restart and could just focus on trying to get past Hamilton. It should be a level playing field, either all cars unlapping themselves or none being allowed to unlap.

In terms of pressuring the race director, Mercedes were just as bad earlier in the race, asking for there not to be a saftey car. That's not for them to determine.

Same as the farce the other week when Masi was negotiating with Red Bull about changing the order of the restart after the red flag. Race director and stewards should make a decision as to what penalty is appropriate and then implement it.
Apparently Ross Brawn has said this will be banned from next year, so it'll only be one-way communication.
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Re: The F1 Thread

Post by ALF » Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:53 pm

Micky Quim wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:12 pm
Agree on Merc f***ing up - they definitely should have pitted Lewis earlier. But then again they couldn't have predicted what a ridiculous balls up would happen given how close they were to the end
They couldn't have predicted it but Max and RB gambled on strategy 4 or 5 times trying to do something that made a difference and it paid off. Mercedes and Lewis just seemed to want to coast to the end unchallenged like they have done for 4 years.

Both teams agreed a long time ago that they wanted the title race to be decided on the track and ending the decider behind the safety car wouldn't have allowed that to happen. They should probably have red flagged it and that would have left it as a 4/5 lap shootout with both on new tyres.

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Re: The F1 Thread

Post by Micky Quim » Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:32 am

ALF wrote:
Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:53 pm
Micky Quim wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:12 pm
Agree on Merc f***ing up - they definitely should have pitted Lewis earlier. But then again they couldn't have predicted what a ridiculous balls up would happen given how close they were to the end
They couldn't have predicted it but Max and RB gambled on strategy 4 or 5 times trying to do something that made a difference and it paid off. Mercedes and Lewis just seemed to want to coast to the end unchallenged like they have done for 4 years.

Both teams agreed a long time ago that they wanted the title race to be decided on the track and ending the decider behind the safety car wouldn't have allowed that to happen. They should probably have red flagged it and that would have left it as a 4/5 lap shootout with both on new tyres.
Agree on race if possible but not by ripping up the rule book. Also agree on the red flag - that would have been a much better idea

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Re: The F1 Thread

Post by Bodacious Benny » Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:14 am

What are the rules around deploying a red flag? Clearly the incident didn’t merit one, so that’s also setting a precedent using a red flag just to clear a stricken car that’s pretty easy to shift with no barrier damage and hardly any debris to clean up. Totally unnecessary to red flag the race based on that.

Not saying it wasn’t theoretically possible, but they’d never red flag a race for that under any other circumstances.
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Re: The F1 Thread

Post by Speedo » Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:48 am

Bodacious Benny wrote:
Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:14 am
What are the rules around deploying a red flag? Clearly the incident didn’t merit one, so that’s also setting a precedent using a red flag just to clear a stricken car that’s pretty easy to shift with no barrier damage and hardly any debris to clean up. Totally unnecessary to red flag the race based on that.

Not saying it wasn’t theoretically possible, but they’d never red flag a race for that under any other circumstances.
They'd also never let only half the lapped cars through in any other circumstance... and tbf the Williams was on the track with bits of carbon fibre everywhere at the hardest-to-access part of the track. We've seen red flags for much less.
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Re: The F1 Thread

Post by Bodacious Benny » Thu Dec 16, 2021 12:50 pm

Well Merc have dropped any appeal so it’s all done and dusted <diva>
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Re: The F1 Thread

Post by Bodacious Benny » Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:45 pm

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Re: The F1 Thread

Post by Bodacious Benny » Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:22 am

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Re: The F1 Thread

Post by Micky Quim » Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:48 pm

Well, here we go again!

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