B4E wrote:I'll start by saying this is all my opinion, so I don't have to keep saying 'in my opinion'
How does it feel to be under permanent totalitarian surveillance, every single moment of your life and for eternity after your death? If god is everywhere and watching his creation, he can not only see you doing every single thing but he can also hear you thinking every single thing and has said himself that will judge you ruthlessly on both.
Simply put, I feel fine with God watching. If God was a human, then maybe I would feel disturbed that this one being would be constantly observing every action and thought I had and he could would judge me on everything I did. Humans can be greedy or spiteful (for whatever reason), and you would feel like it is unfair that another man could judge you for everything. However, as God isn't a human and he is.. God, I feel completely fine to be under 'permanent totalitarian surveillance', as you put it. Humans have been around for over 50,000 years, so for God to be observing all humans for that length of time means he's committed to the cause and I trust that he is not using the infinite amount of info he has on each of us to his own advantages. And after your death? That depends on what happens when we die. It's obviously not as simple as 'going to heaven or hell'. Where's the line?
The God of the Old Testament is prone to human qualities such as anger, jealous and vengeance. He is spiteful, as demonstrated with the Tower of Babel, and he is greedy, as shown by forbidding the worship of 'false idols'. At what point in our evolution did he suddenly decide to be interested in surveillance our every neural activity? Considering even
Homo Sapiens have been around for 200,000 years, if not necessarily on the same emotional level as of the 50,000 years ago figure you quote. Did he care for the rest of the
Homo genus? Or do you buy into the 'testing your faith' cop out?
B4E wrote:Does your god intervene in human affairs, and does he care what you do and answer prayers? Or do you think that he started the universe 14 billion years ago and has sat back watching without getting involved ever since?
I think God intervened with human affairs at first, then decided against it pretty early in for whatever reason.
(I just thought about this and it's weird when you think about it. If God knows everything that's happened, everything that's happening, and everything that will happen, does this mean he would know what would happen if he did decide to intervine with the universe somehow, or would it create a gap of knowledge? Might be why he leaves everything as it is)
I don't think he cares to any extent about prayers, maybe due to the point I just made (if he touches something, he doesn't know what will happen) but mainly because the vast majority of them are asking for something that would benefit them or someone else, which usually ends up disadvantaging something else. (If some kid wanted to be taller, and God made him taller, he would be allowed to go on that theme park ride he always wanted, meaning two kids that would of previously got on would have to wait till the next cart, meaning they would make the coach late which means someone different would have to slow down to let the coach go past etc. etc. and everything changes
).
How could an omnipotent being such as Himself not be able to see the possible consequences of His actions? Are you saying that your god's powers are limited? He's already planned out all these events to whatever degree of pre-determinism/free will you believe in, so tweaks shouldn't be beyond his ability. Surely a better reason for him to conveniently ignore prayers is that they are against or questioning His will?
B4E wrote:Do you agree with these messages and hints at how to live life that are in the bible? Do you believe that they are genuinely the words of a god, considering how tremendously dated these messages and hints are (being fitting for a flat world at the centre of the universe where slavery, misogyny and racism are major parts of life), and how many parts are plagiarised from other earlier literature? Do you not think that humans are capable of deciding on moral actions without the need for these messages?
I'd just like to say I've never fully read the bible, or even got close, but I intend to read it one day just for the fact that I want to see why people say 'that chapter where God does something out of character
'.
From what I have read, I agree and disagree with the messages and hints in the Bible. Though I look at everything in the Bible with a slight hint of 'this was when people saw and wrote, there was no google to check if it is impossible for any man to turn water into wine'. For example, when Moses was pestering that authority dude (I can't be bothered checking the story) and effectively blackmailing him to let all those people go, I thought that was pretty s***. Especially when he went and killed all those first born children (or something). However, there are lots of Jesus occasions where he promotes things like equality of stuff in his own way (the good samaritan is the famous one isn't it?), which I find quite interesting in itself. Considering religion is based on testimony, it's pretty bad that I haven't looked into the scripture of the religion I say I believe in, I must admit. The 'plagiarised from other earlier literature' part is a good point which I've seen you make before. I don't know.
Humans are of course capable of deciding moral actions without the messages, and even religion! However, religion does offer a nice set of guidelines as to what is right and wrong.
(I was going to delve into a question about if people always made the correct moral choice, would religion as something you could follow exist, as it sounds good in my head when I thought it through, but it doesn't anymore so I'll just leave it there, in case someone else thinks it does)
I don't see anything here to really reply to. I have to question fully subscribing to a god without bothering to read their scriptures. As for the nsfw bit, to me religion is a crutch to explain the contemporarily inexplicable, and to offer the comfort that ignorance and lack of responsibility offer, which was then also adapted to help control the dumb masses.
B4E wrote:What is wrong with picking another god? Why this particular one? Is it because you grew up being told that he exists? If so then do you think every, say, Hindu or Sikh is totally wrong even though they were brought up in the exact same fashion and think the exact same of you? If instead it is because you've educated yourself in most major gods and decided that this is the one for you, why did you decide that? What is more believable about your god than the rest of them? (When forming beliefs obviously it's about which is true or at least the most likely, rather than the most appealing or amusing. For instance, we could believe that there were cakes in our fridges because it sounds nice, but it wouldn't make it so.)
Did I say it was wrong to pick another God? I didn't mean it if I did :p
Why this particular one? I think I said in a previous post that I was part of a faith primary and secondary school, and the religion was R.Catholic. This has been the God that I have been taught all my life, and so I have thought about God in the perspective of the teachings I have been given. Obviously, I only believe in one God, but when I came to the conclusion that yes, he does exist, I was primarily using the aspects that were given to him by Christian teachings. So yes, it is because I grew up being told he exists, and not due to self education, although I have read up on what people say and think on the subject (this thread is a nice example).
I do not think that people who believe in a different God are totally wrong. They were obviously brought up in an alternative culture that believe in a different God. This is where I use the easiest defensive mechnism for religious people there is, and I say that believing in God is a personal thing. Nobody except from myself will ever change my mind about God's existence, and so taking into account other people's beliefs is something I just don't think I should do. There is also a case of ignorance, as admittedly I am not on the same level of knowledge with other religions than I am with my own, meaning I can not compare and contrast between what I believe and what others believe. Good question though.
Finally, what is more believable with my God than what other people believe God is? I think that the way Christianity (if you accept the Bible as not literal when concerning some stuff) has left a lot of key questions vague has allowed me to dwell on what is the answer to them. For example, I fully believe in what it says about life after death, although I do not think it is judged as basic as the scripture may suggest. Heaven and Hell are universal concepts, and with good reason. We understand it, so we can follow it. Some would say this is because it is made up, I say it is because God wants us to go to heaven.
Right, I think that is it. Sorry for the long wait in reply. Good questions by the way, made me think.
This is what I cannot comprehend about the majority of theists. You were brought up to believe, and then just accept it. When asked to justify it, you say it's what you were taught at school and raised to believe without a so much as a shred of empirical proof in a world filled with other flavours of religion, but because
this is the one your parents chose to immerse you in, it's right. It reminds me of a child raised in a vehemently racist family in a racist area, they've been taught that is how it is throughout their formative stages and so they see it as right and are steadfast in their beliefs.
My family is a mix of Irish Catholic and Church of England, I was sent to a Roman Catholic primary school, and by the age of 8 or so I was already questioning how on Earth anyone could believe this rubbish. I guess I just don't understand people who didn't go through that and just happily sat there and were spoon-fed that tripe because they didn't think to see if there was a more logical option. One of the funnier things which helped turn me against Catholicism was daily assemblies where we were expected to sing songs of praise to this almighty deity. Who the f*** wants to believe in a such a narcissistic prick that has his followers sing songs of his supposed omnipotent greatness on a daily basis?
B4E wrote:I have one question. If God doesn't exist, then who started off religion? There's an easy answer, but it makes you think. Religion has become pretty complex, but someone must of started it.
Pretty much did this bit earlier on: "to me religion is a crutch to explain the contemporarily inexplicable, and to offer the comfort that ignorance and lack of responsibility offer, which was then also adapted to help control the dumb masses."
Ignorant prehistoric man sees this ball of fire through the day giving him warmth, light and so much more, ignorant prehistoric man worships it as a god, for he knows nothing of what it is or how it works. Give it nearly 200,000 years and you find that the worship of this Sun deity has got a bit more complex over time, but stems back to the same ball of fire in the sky.
) so I have an excuse to keep it brief.
Try telling that to Lovenkrands.
. His motives for creating us is unclear for me. Maybe he wanted to experiment on free will? I don't know. I refuse to believe that Earth is the only thing he concentrates on. Maybe he's staging the largest Age Of Empires game known to anything. Ever. (Your point is very hard to counter, it's one of those things nobody has an universial answer to).
