Are you patriotic?

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Speedo
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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by Speedo » Mon May 07, 2012 3:34 pm

skalpel wrote:<laugh> I don't envy you having to write an essay on this.

I'll take us slightly aside for a moment: does that necessarily stand as proof that mutual democracy among individual countries is directly related to peace? You touched on trade initially and I read an interesting site on this topic a while ago, and found it again today after reading your post, in which it was suggested that in fact no two countries with a McDonalds restaurant had gone to war with each other either. That in fact raises an interesting consideration, much wider than the initial trivial example of McDonalds obviously, that a linked reliance on the global economy seems to prevent war more convincingly than merely democracy itself.
This mutual reliance transcends country borders, so doesn't this somewhat diminish the importance of countries and of democracy? Democracy being more common across richer countries and war most common among the poorer staples in a pretty clear link to economy after all.
<laugh> I just realised I meant this, the democracy thing is kind of an extrapolation of this. But the point still stands: free trade and, broadly speaking, democracy prevents wars because both sides lose.

Democracy is key, because democracy is the only system in which free trade works properly. What countries aren't democracies and have properly open economies? China isn't one, it is heavily regulated, forcing export-led growth and undervaluation (I think, possibly overvaluation) of it's currency, making its citizens poorer (they can't afford to buy western goods). The Gulf states certainly don't, only the sheiks/exceptionally wealthy can do as they choose. The poorer workers are basically slaves. I could go on.

Basically, what I'm arguing is that Free Trade = Peace, but Free Trade requires Democracy to work properly, or you get the bastardised trade situation of China. Further, Democracy is, in many ways, a commodity exported like any other. Witness the Arab Spring: people saw that it didn't need to be as it was, with corrupt dictators and so on ruining their lives.
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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by Seagull » Mon May 07, 2012 3:36 pm

Cobdenism <diva>
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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by Kyle? » Fri May 11, 2012 1:28 am

If you consider patriotism as backing the germans at every conceivable opportunity, then yes, i am a patriot.
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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by cbrad NUFC » Sat May 12, 2012 1:45 pm

Yes I am, cheer England on at anything, even a team with people like Wayne Rooney, Ashley Cole, John Terry and Ashley Young in it.

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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by Alfie » Tue May 15, 2012 1:25 pm

I am patriotic, I'm proud of our country. We were raised on drizzle & dripping and still had greatest empire in the world!
And in conclusion, how far had you got through reading this before you realised it was my signature?

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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by skalpel » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:08 pm

Image

Image

Image

Built in Italy by Italians and sold to a half American company.

Isn't one of the chief points of patriotism to be proud of your country's achievements? "Look at the docks our own people have produced, look at the ships our own people have built in our docks, look at our culture of free enterprise which gave birth to our home rooted companies responsible for this organisation." Waving a flag at a ship built by foreigners in their country and sold to a second foreign owned company isn't waving a flag at your country, it's just waving a flag at a flag. Surely a ship with this sort of jingo-pomp surrounding it should have been home built. Weird. Especially weird in a country whose largest focus of pride was once in navy and shipbuilding.

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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by overseasTOON » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:19 pm

"British Brut NV from the Wiston Estate Winery at Pulborough in West Sussex is being used for the naming ceremony in Britannia's home port of Southampton."

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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by Duke » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:34 pm

Northern Ireland, no. How could anyone be proud of a country formed the way it was?
Last edited by Duke on Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I dunno

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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by PTAO? » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:35 pm

Duke wrote:I'm not patriotic in the slightest. I've grown to dislike my country if anything because of all the **** that goes on, and has went on, in it.
Maybe you should be grateful that in other countries you would have been locked up by now

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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by Duke » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:36 pm

Pull the Arfa One wrote:
Duke wrote:I'm not patriotic in the slightest. I've grown to dislike my country if anything because of all the **** that goes on, and has went on, in it.
Maybe you should be grateful that in other countries you would have been locked up by now
I changed it but you were too quick <fist>.
I dunno

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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by PTAO? » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:43 pm

Duke wrote:
Pull the Arfa One wrote:
Maybe you should be grateful that in other countries you would have been locked up by now
I changed it but you were too quick <fist>.
Heard that before <grim>

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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by Duke » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:44 pm

Pull the Arfa One wrote:
Duke wrote:
I changed it but you were too quick <fist>.
Heard that before <neg>
<laugh>
I dunno

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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by overseasTOON » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:49 pm

Duke wrote:Northern Ireland, no. How could anyone be proud of a country formed the way it was?
What’s wrong with its geology?

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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by Duke » Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:08 pm

overseasTOON wrote:
Duke wrote:Northern Ireland, no. How could anyone be proud of a country formed the way it was?
What’s wrong with its geology?
The Giant's Causeway is a f***ing disgrace <fist>
I dunno

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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by Southern fairy » Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:03 pm

Duke wrote:
overseasTOON wrote:
What’s wrong with its geology?
The Giant's Causeway is a f***ing disgrace <fist>
I guess I'll cancel that trip over there then :(
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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by Bodacious Benny » Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:52 pm

I'm patriotic, we've a lot to be proud of as a nation. Yes we've done wrong, who hasn't. But we've also done a hell of a lot of good and have a rich culture to take pride in.

If people aren't patriotic it's their decision - but equally people are entitled to be patriotic and take pride in where they're from.
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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by Donkey Toon » Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:37 pm

I'm certainly not patriotic in the traditional sense, i.e. the flag waving jingoistic US way. Blindly believing in the moral superiority of my nation irrespective of the facts or history.

I'm very much of the outlook that the first duty of a patriot is to question the government. I won't blindly follow the wishes of the government or monarch and believe that it is the citizens who are responsible for ensuring that the leaders do not go down the wrong path. The quote that the people get the government they deserve is something I agree with.

But when my country is doing what I think is the right thing then I will support it all the way. I'm also pretty proud to be British because I think we are currently one of the most well balanced nations in the world. But I also acknowledge that our nation has done things in the past that it should be ashamed of.

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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by skalpel » Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:56 pm

Asino Toon wrote:I'm certainly not patriotic in the traditional sense, i.e. the flag waving jingoistic US way. Blindly believing in the moral superiority of my nation irrespective of the facts or history.

I'm very much of the outlook that the first duty of a patriot is to question the government. I won't blindly follow the wishes of the government or monarch and believe that it is the citizens who are responsible for ensuring that the leaders do not go down the wrong path. The quote that the people get the government they deserve is something I agree with.

But when my country is doing what I think is the right thing then I will support it all the way. I'm also pretty proud to be British because I think we are currently one of the most well balanced nations in the world. But I also acknowledge that our nation has done things in the past that it should be ashamed of.
It's funny reading this thread again, and I agree with your post here. My first post in this thread from back in 2012 is ridiculous and totally misses the point. Jingoism and blind support is obviously silly, but pride in a set of values that are shared by people in your nation or by the people of a collection of nations is nothing to sniff at haughtily. I've learned as I've gotten older that it is pride and celebration of the freedoms shared in a nation or collective civilisation like Western Europe which helps to preserve them and promote their virtues to other parts of the world. I don't feel British culturally, and so much about the place confuses and alienates me, but I do feel proud to have been born in a country (and cluster of countries) in which the great majority believe in the same important human freedoms championed in the Enlightenment.

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