Are you patriotic?

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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by Cal » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:58 am

Smudger wrote:
skalpel wrote:No. Patrioism is 'devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty', therefore I am not patriotic; I have no reason to offer devoted support and love to, or to take pride in, any one particular country over all others. I dislike the concept of patriotism to begin with because it is merely an extension of tribalism; which is a form of blind support that I can't say I'd be happy to be consciously guilty of, despite all humans lapsing into this instinct at times anyway. And then looking at my home country; there is so strikingly little of it that I can be proud of, from the structure of its government to its media and popular culture, that I actually have no foundations on which to claim to be a patriot without being blatantly hypocritical.

Short answer: No, I dislike patriotism as a rule because I couldn't subscribe myself blindly to loving one place purely because I happened to be born there. Also I know no country that I would like enough on the whole to be devoted to.
This, entirely. Summed it up better than I could.
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The only tribalism I subscribe to is my support of Newcastle United. I don't care much about England as a whole and feel quite disassociated and distant from it and the majority of its people.

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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by Chip Chipperson » Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:09 pm

I'm not OTT patriotic like most Americans but this is my home. I'm more patriotic about Newcastle as i'm proud to be Geordie.
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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by Geordie Gashead » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:07 am

Can't say I can really feel too proud about being English, considering the way patriotism has been used throughout the years to justify so many illegalities and condemn so many innocent people to death.
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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by TJR » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:11 pm

Obertans Magic Head wrote:Because this is where im from. Im proud to be from the north east, im proud to be from England, Im proud to be British. There is no real reason except that this is where im from.
Ameobi's Apprentice wrote:I'm not OTT patriotic like most Americans but this is my home. I'm more patriotic about Newcastle as i'm proud to be Geordie.
These

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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by Hatem Is A Geordie » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:34 am

No I'm not really, if someone will have a go at England or English people then yeah sure I'll defend us, but I'm not openly patriotic, to me being English doesn't change the way I do anything.

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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by jpg » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:04 pm

I would say yes. Loving your country doesn't mean you hate all the others.

For an 'Island' Britain has much to be proud of and has a very rich culture in many different aspects.

Industry, Music, sports... The English Language!

(This will probably spark a big debate...) I would argue that the British Empire was beneficial to the world even though her imperialistic ways committed many shameful acts of violence and injustices. However, I'm in no way condoning them but I think you can't compare these acts to the modern day as the world was a much different place back then.

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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by Plate of Barszcz for me » Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:59 am

Im proud to be Irish, I just wish people who represent Ireland on air would show some respect,


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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by Seagull » Mon May 07, 2012 12:36 am

http://hencewise.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/countries.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting read, explains some of my views on patriotism much better than I ever could
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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by PLS » Mon May 07, 2012 10:00 am

I want curly hair wrote:http://hencewise.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/countries.html

Interesting read, explains some of my views on patriotism much better than I ever could
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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by skalpel » Mon May 07, 2012 11:41 am

Very good read so far <ok>. Unfortunately it's stuff I've been finding myself trying to get across in conversation with patriotic people that never seems to register.

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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by Speedo » Mon May 07, 2012 12:01 pm

Interesting read. Not sure I agree entirely though, countries are a necessity, just as Governments and Taxes are. The reason we are no longer 'nomadic people' is because we're smart enough to know we're better off working together, through trading between us (on a micro or macro level), and settling down helps this. To suggest war and the existence of countries are intrinsically linked is naïve: for example, two democracies have never gone to war.

Some say it is western patriarchalism or patronisation to suggest our democracy is correct and the others are wrong. Patronising or not, it's still right.
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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by Blue & Maroon » Mon May 07, 2012 12:20 pm

Speedo wrote:Interesting read. Not sure I agree entirely though, countries are a necessity, just as Governments and Taxes are. The reason we are no longer 'nomadic people' is because we're smart enough to know we're better off working together, through trading between us (on a micro or macro level), and settling down helps this. To suggest war and the existence of countries are intrinsically linked is naïve: for example, two democracies have never gone to war.

Some say it is western patriarchalism or patronisation to suggest our democracy is correct and the others are wrong. Patronising or not, it's still right.
We went to war with Finland during WW2, we were both democracies at the time 8) No fighting took place though and I agree with your overall point I'm just being picky <parrot>

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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by skalpel » Mon May 07, 2012 12:30 pm

Speedo wrote:Interesting read. Not sure I agree entirely though, countries are a necessity, just as Governments and Taxes are. The reason we are no longer 'nomadic people' is because we're smart enough to know we're better off working together, through trading between us (on a micro or macro level), and settling down helps this. To suggest war and the existence of countries are intrinsically linked is naïve: for example, two democracies have never gone to war.

Some say it is western patriarchalism or patronisation to suggest our democracy is correct and the others are wrong. Patronising or not, it's still right.
I pretty much only skimmed, but I don't remember the guy suggesting that the existence of countries is linked directly to war at all. Feel free to correct me there with a quote though. He's indeed wrong if he thinks that.

Democracies have gone to war with each other before though.

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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by FogOnTheRhine » Mon May 07, 2012 12:33 pm

Dr. Dream Boat wrote:We went to war with Finland during WW2, we were both democracies at the time 8) No fighting took place though and I agree with your overall point I'm just being picky <parrot>
Yeah the actual fighting was done by Communists though. We only went to war with them because of the alliance, and they were only really on the fascist side to protect them from Russia. <gent>


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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by Blue & Maroon » Mon May 07, 2012 12:36 pm

You'veBeenTiote'd wrote:
Dr. Dream Boat wrote:We went to war with Finland during WW2, we were both democracies at the time 8) No fighting took place though and I agree with your overall point I'm just being picky <parrot>
Yeah the actual fighting was done by Communists though. We only went to war with them because of the alliance, and they were only really on the fascist side to protect them from Russia. <gent>


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You would be correct in your thinking <gent> We only did it to keep the Soviets <love>ing us.

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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by Speedo » Mon May 07, 2012 12:37 pm

skalpel wrote:
Speedo wrote:Interesting read. Not sure I agree entirely though, countries are a necessity, just as Governments and Taxes are. The reason we are no longer 'nomadic people' is because we're smart enough to know we're better off working together, through trading between us (on a micro or macro level), and settling down helps this. To suggest war and the existence of countries are intrinsically linked is naïve: for example, two democracies have never gone to war.

Some say it is western patriarchalism or patronisation to suggest our democracy is correct and the others are wrong. Patronising or not, it's still right.
I pretty much only skimmed, but I don't remember the guy suggesting that the existence of countries is linked directly to war at all. Feel free to correct me there with a quote though. He's indeed wrong if he thinks that.

Democracies have gone to war with each other before though.
From that blog:
War exists because we have countries, and could not exist without them. War exists because we have taxation, and could not exist without it.
Also, on the democracies at war, I looked it up. No 2 stable democracies have been at war since about the 5th century.
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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by skalpel » Mon May 07, 2012 12:45 pm

Speedo wrote:
War exists because we have countries, and could not exist without them. War exists because we have taxation, and could not exist without it.
<ok> Cheers.
Speedo wrote:Also, on the democracies at war, I looked it up. No 2 stable democracies have been at war since about the 5th century.
The word 'stable' is pretty ambiguous though, historians could probably argue all day on who could be considered as 'stable' (I know I was about to start pulling examples out, but the hell with that - we'd be here all afternoon <laugh>). I'd say the word stable is reasonably irrelevant here too unless properly defined in the context, because the whole meat of the statement is to suggest that it is the principles of democratic countries that do not cause conflict between each other. The clarification 'since about the 5th century' also rules out the statement from being completely true anyway.

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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by EastMidlandMagpie » Mon May 07, 2012 2:21 pm

I wouldn't say that i was patriotic, my grandma is French and i much prefer their culture, language and passion for politics.

I'd much prefer to live in a religion free world, where everyone is united and countries becomes constituencies for elections of the world. This though will never happen as long as there is religion and racists ect ect.

Even after this though i still support England at the world cup and I am very proud to be from the North East midlands for reasons that when i really think about them are pretty shitty.
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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by Speedo » Mon May 07, 2012 2:59 pm

skalpel wrote:
Speedo wrote:
<ok> Cheers.
Speedo wrote:Also, on the democracies at war, I looked it up. No 2 stable democracies have been at war since about the 5th century.
The word 'stable' is pretty ambiguous though, historians could probably argue all day on who could be considered as 'stable' (I know I was about to start pulling examples out, but the hell with that - we'd be here all afternoon <laugh>). I'd say the word stable is reasonably irrelevant here too unless properly defined in the context, because the whole meat of the statement is to suggest that it is the principles of democratic countries that do not cause conflict between each other. The clarification 'since about the 5th century' also rules out the statement from being completely true anyway.
Before then it was the 'democracies' in ancient Greece etc., which was essentially a democracy within the autocracy anyway, so we can probably regard them as non-democracies anyway.

When I talk about 'stable' democracies, I know it's an imprecise term, but what I mean is a democracy which is a) not in its infancy (first 20 years or so), b) not beholden to the military or another unelected body/selection of people (disqualifying Russia and the oligarchy) and c) has a set of democratic institutions, acting as checks and balances on the power of the executive (i.e. the PM or President) and the legislature (House of Commons, Congress).

I'm aware that you could define it differently, but based on that definition, there has never been a war between two stable democracies. It's a definition based on the mainstream one in political theory. I got to write an essay on a bit of it, which was about as entertaining as gouging my eyes out with a soup spoon.
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Re: Are you patriotic?

Post by skalpel » Mon May 07, 2012 3:25 pm

<laugh> I don't envy you having to write an essay on this.

I'll take us slightly aside for a moment: does that necessarily stand as proof that mutual democracy among individual countries is directly related to peace? You touched on trade initially and I read an interesting site on this topic a while ago, and found it again today after reading your post, in which it was suggested that in fact no two countries with a McDonalds restaurant had gone to war with each other either. That in fact raises an interesting consideration, much wider than the initial trivial example of McDonalds obviously, that a linked reliance on the global economy seems to prevent war more convincingly than merely democracy itself.
This mutual reliance transcends country borders, so doesn't this somewhat diminish the importance of countries and of democracy? Democracy being more common across richer countries and war most common among the poorer staples in a pretty clear link to economy after all.

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