Genius

[Mifune]

Genius is a term that gets way, way, way overused due to people thinking that a high amount of talent equals genius. I personally vehemently disagree with this. I think a person can be insanely talented but not be a genius. I think that there is some sort of intangible quality that makes up a genius; something cerebral and original. I also think that there has to be some sort of application of genius. Someone could be incredibly talented or incredibly clever but do not apply it in a way a genius does. Genius is not simply an IQ or talent level.

Sport is probably the place where the term "genius" gets tossed around the most, and while I do certainly believe that sports people can be geniuses, the only one I can think of that I would be confortable calling a genius would be Ronnie O'Sullivan. The likes of Messi or Federer I think are extremely naturally talented, they are arguably the most natually talented people in their sports of all time, but to me they don't have that intangible quality that makes a genius. The same with the likes of Nadal and Ronaldo, they are an almost unheard of mix of high talent and physical prowess, but again do not have that quality.

It is similar in other fields whether it is science, music, literature, art, or whatever.

I also agree with much of this Jack Kerouac quote on genius vs talent:

Genius doesn’t mean screwiness or eccentricity or excessive “talent.” It is derived from the Latin word gignere (to beget) and a genius is simply a person who originates something never known before. Nobody but Melville could have written Moby-Dick, not even Whitman or Shakespeare. Nobody but Whitman could have written Leaves of Grass; Whitman was born to write Leaves of Grass and Melville was born to write Moby-Dick.

Some perfect virtuoso who can interpret Brahms on the violin is called a “genius,” but the genius, the originating force, really belongs to Brahms; the violin virtuoso is simply a talented interpreter — in other words, a “Talent.” Or you’ll hear people say that so-and-so is a “major writer” because of his “talent.” There can be no major writers without original genius.

[PTAO?]

Infinite monkeys could have written Moby Dick

[Duke]

What has O'Sullivan done that anyone else hasn't? John Higgins has won the same amount of world championships as him in the last 10 years . Even Steve Davis has more ffs.

What intangible quality does O'Sullivan have over Messi? That he's a bit of a character/knob?

Being less boring than your competitors doesn't make you a genius.

[Ramone]

In terms of football I think Messi is a genius along with very few others. Pirlo is another. They both can do stuff that no other player can do or even think to attempt.

[Duke]

In terms of football I think Messi is a genius along with very few others. Pirlo is another. They both can do stuff that no other player can do or even think to attempt.

Yeah Messi definitely for me. Most goals of all time ever in one calender year. Most player of the years ever. Most La Liga goals ever. Most Champions League goals ever. Constantly breaking records and he's still only 27.


Edit: In fact here's a list of the records he currently holds


World

Most FIFA Ballon d'Or awards: 4[388]
Guinness World Records title for the most goals in a year (2012): 91 goals (96 goals including club friendlies)[389][390]
Most consecutive league matches scored in: 21 matches (33 goals)[391]
First footballer ever to score consecutively against all teams in a professional league[392]
Most international goals in a calendar year (2012): 25 (shared with Vivian Woodward and Cristiano Ronaldo)[393]
Only player to ever win all of the Ballon d’Or, FIFA World Player, Pichichi Trophy and Golden Shoe in the same season: 2009/2010[390]
Youngest two-time/three-time/four-time Ballon d'Or winner: 23/24/25 years[394]
Most FIFA Club World Cup Golden Balls: 2 (2009,[395] 2011[396]) [397]
Most appearances in the top 3 candidates for the Ballon d'Or: 8 times (2007-2014)[398]
Most appearances in the FIFPro World XI: 8 times (2007-2014) (shared with Cristiano Ronaldo)[399]



Europe

Most European Golden Shoe awards: 3[400]
Most goals scored in a season (club): 73 goals[129]
Most goals scored in a year (club): 79 goals[401]
Most European Cup top scorer awards: 4 (shared with Gerd Müller)[402]
Most consecutive European Cup top scorer awards: 4[402]
Most hat-tricks in UEFA Champions League: 5 hat-tricks[175]
Highest scorer in a UEFA Champions League game: 5 goals[403]
Most goals scored in the UEFA Champions League: 75 goals[404]
Only player to score in 21 different cities in the European Cup[405]


Argentina

Most goals scored in a year (national team): 12 goals (shared with Gabriel Batistuta)[406]
Youngest player that have scored a goal at FIFA World Cup Finals: 18 years and 357 days old (2006 vs Serbia & Montenegro)[407]
Most goals scored in International friendlies: 24
Most goals scored, alongside Javier Saviola, in all U-20 International competitions (2004-2005): 11 goals (14 goals including friendlies)
Most goals scored in one FIFA World Cup qualification (2014): 10[408]


Spain

Most goals scored in La Liga history: 270 goals[409]
Most assists made in La Liga history: 106 assists[198][note 2]
Most hat-tricks, alongside Cristiano Ronaldo, in La Liga: 23[410]
Most away goals scored in La Liga history: 118 goals[172][411]
Most goals scored in La Liga in a season: 50 goals[412]
Most consecutive La Liga matches scored in: 21 matches (33 goals)[391]
Most La Liga hat-tricks in a season: 8 hat-tricks[413]
Youngest player to score 200 La Liga goals: 25 years[414]
Most goals scored in El Clasico: 21[415]
Most hat-tricks in El Clásico matches: 2[415]
Most goals scored in Derbi barceloní matches: 12 goals[194]
Most hat-tricks, alongside Telmo Zarra, for a Spanish team: 31[199]
Most braces in La Liga history: 78[416]
First player in La Liga history to score 20+ goals for 7 consecutive seasons[417]
First player in La Liga history to score 25+ goals for 6 consecutive seasons[418]
First player in La Liga history to score 30+ goals for 4 consecutive seasons[418]
Most goals scored in the Supercopa de España: 10 goals[413]


Barcelona

Top goalscorer in Barcelona history: 420[393]
Top goalscorer in official competitions: 392[393]
Top goalscorer in La Liga: 270[393]
Top scorer in international competitions: 80[393]
Top scorer in UEFA Champions League: 75[419]
Most hat-tricks in Barcelona history: 31[199]
Most away goals scored in Barcelona history in La Liga: 118 goals[411]
Fastest Barcelona player to score a hat-trick: 17 minutes (2012 vs RCD Mallorca





But yeah Ronnie O'Sullivan

[Mifune]

What has O'Sullivan done that anyone else hasn't? John Higgins has won the same amount of world championships as him in the last 10 years . Even Steve Davis has more ffs.

But Messi isn't? After scoring the most goals in one calender year of anyone ever?

What intangible quality does O'Sullivan have over Messi? That he's a bit of a character/knob?

I don't think genius is how much you have won or how many goals you have scored. O'Sullivan plays snooker is a completely different way to any other player ever. He has done things nobody else in the history of the game could or can do. There is a cerebral element to the way in which O'Sullivan plays and see the game.

Messi is phenomenally naturally talented but to me does not have that intangible genius quality, it is not a slight, just personal outlook.

[Mifune]

In terms of football I think Messi is a genius along with very few others. Pirlo is another. They both can do stuff that no other player can do or even think to attempt.

Yeah Messi definitely for me. Most goals of all time ever in one calender year. Most player of the years ever. Most La Liga goals ever. Most Champions League goals ever. Constantly breaking records and he's still only 27.


Edit: In fact here's a list of the records he currently holds

SpoilerShow

World

Most FIFA Ballon d'Or awards: 4[388]
Guinness World Records title for the most goals in a year (2012): 91 goals (96 goals including club friendlies)[389][390]
Most consecutive league matches scored in: 21 matches (33 goals)[391]
First footballer ever to score consecutively against all teams in a professional league[392]
Most international goals in a calendar year (2012): 25 (shared with Vivian Woodward and Cristiano Ronaldo)[393]
Only player to ever win all of the Ballon d’Or, FIFA World Player, Pichichi Trophy and Golden Shoe in the same season: 2009/2010[390]
Youngest two-time/three-time/four-time Ballon d'Or winner: 23/24/25 years[394]
Most FIFA Club World Cup Golden Balls: 2 (2009,[395] 2011[396]) [397]
Most appearances in the top 3 candidates for the Ballon d'Or: 8 times (2007-2014)[398]
Most appearances in the FIFPro World XI: 8 times (2007-2014) (shared with Cristiano Ronaldo)[399]



Europe

Most European Golden Shoe awards: 3[400]
Most goals scored in a season (club): 73 goals[129]
Most goals scored in a year (club): 79 goals[401]
Most European Cup top scorer awards: 4 (shared with Gerd Müller)[402]
Most consecutive European Cup top scorer awards: 4[402]
Most hat-tricks in UEFA Champions League: 5 hat-tricks[175]
Highest scorer in a UEFA Champions League game: 5 goals[403]
Most goals scored in the UEFA Champions League: 75 goals[404]
Only player to score in 21 different cities in the European Cup[405]


Argentina

Most goals scored in a year (national team): 12 goals (shared with Gabriel Batistuta)[406]
Youngest player that have scored a goal at FIFA World Cup Finals: 18 years and 357 days old (2006 vs Serbia & Montenegro)[407]
Most goals scored in International friendlies: 24
Most goals scored, alongside Javier Saviola, in all U-20 International competitions (2004-2005): 11 goals (14 goals including friendlies)
Most goals scored in one FIFA World Cup qualification (2014): 10[408]


Spain

Most goals scored in La Liga history: 270 goals[409]
Most assists made in La Liga history: 106 assists[198][note 2]
Most hat-tricks, alongside Cristiano Ronaldo, in La Liga: 23[410]
Most away goals scored in La Liga history: 118 goals[172][411]
Most goals scored in La Liga in a season: 50 goals[412]
Most consecutive La Liga matches scored in: 21 matches (33 goals)[391]
Most La Liga hat-tricks in a season: 8 hat-tricks[413]
Youngest player to score 200 La Liga goals: 25 years[414]
Most goals scored in El Clasico: 21[415]
Most hat-tricks in El Clásico matches: 2[415]
Most goals scored in Derbi barceloní matches: 12 goals[194]
Most hat-tricks, alongside Telmo Zarra, for a Spanish team: 31[199]
Most braces in La Liga history: 78[416]
First player in La Liga history to score 20+ goals for 7 consecutive seasons[417]
First player in La Liga history to score 25+ goals for 6 consecutive seasons[418]
First player in La Liga history to score 30+ goals for 4 consecutive seasons[418]
Most goals scored in the Supercopa de España: 10 goals[413]


Barcelona

Top goalscorer in Barcelona history: 420[393]
Top goalscorer in official competitions: 392[393]
Top goalscorer in La Liga: 270[393]
Top scorer in international competitions: 80[393]
Top scorer in UEFA Champions League: 75[419]
Most hat-tricks in Barcelona history: 31[199]
Most away goals scored in Barcelona history in La Liga: 118 goals[411]
Fastest Barcelona player to score a hat-trick: 17 minutes (2012 vs RCD Mallorca

But yeah Ronnie O'Sullivan

Yeah you are kind of missing my point completely aren't you .

[Duke]

What has O'Sullivan done that anyone else hasn't? John Higgins has won the same amount of world championships as him in the last 10 years . Even Steve Davis has more ffs.

But Messi isn't? After scoring the most goals in one calender year of anyone ever?

What intangible quality does O'Sullivan have over Messi? That he's a bit of a character/knob?

I don't think genius is how much you have won or how many goals you have scored. O'Sullivan plays snooker is a completely different way to any other player ever. He has done things nobody else in the history of the game could or can do. There is a cerebral element to the way in which O'Sullivan plays and see the game.

Messi is phenomenally naturally talented but to me does not have that intangible genius quality, it is not a slight, just personal outlook.

But how can a style of play, no matter how different it is, be considered genius if it doesn't result in you winning stuff? That's the whole point in sport.

[Mifune]

I don't think genius is how much you have won or how many goals you have scored. O'Sullivan plays snooker is a completely different way to any other player ever. He has done things nobody else in the history of the game could or can do. There is a cerebral element to the way in which O'Sullivan plays and see the game.

Messi is phenomenally naturally talented but to me does not have that intangible genius quality, it is not a slight, just personal outlook.

But how can a style of play, no matter how different it is, be considered genius if it doesn't result in you winning stuff? That's the whole point in sport.

That is like saying Dan Brown is a better writer than Nabokov because he has sold more books, or that Schumacher is the greatest F1 driver of all time because he has won the most title. Genius is transcendent.

[Duke]

But how can a style of play, no matter how different it is, be considered genius if it doesn't result in you winning stuff? That's the whole point in sport.

That is like saying Dan Brown is a better writer than Nabokov because he has sold more books, or that Schumacher is the greatest F1 driver of all time because he has won the most title. Genius is transcendent.

No it isn't.

[Mifune]

Well what is it then? You are basically saying that genius is the amount of awards or records you have, which is fine if that is your definition of genius, I just think that there is a difference between being exceptionally talented and being a genius.

[Duke]

Your mum is transcendent

[Mifune]

I don't think she has ever been described that before .

[Sir Bobby]

By definition, genius means exceptionally intelligent or having exceptional natural ability. Therefore you argument is redundant I'm afraid. Messi is a genius, Mozart a genius and Shakespeare too.
Someone who might not be a genius but rather an exceptionally hard worker who had some great breaks is Bill Gates.

I'm sorry to break it to you but, yes 'Genius is simply an IQ or talent level'

[Mifune]

By definition, genius means exceptionally intelligent or having exceptional natural ability. Therefore you argument is redundant I'm afraid. Messi is a genius, Mozart a genius and Shakespeare too.
Someone who might not be a genius but rather an exceptionally hard worker who had some great breaks is Bill Gates.

I'm sorry to break it to you but, yes 'Genius is simply an IQ or talent level'

There is no fixed definition of genius, and no fixed criteria of what makes one.

[PTAO?]

By definition, genius means exceptionally intelligent or having exceptional natural ability. Therefore you argument is redundant I'm afraid. Messi is a genius, Mozart a genius and Shakespeare too.
Someone who might not be a genius but rather an exceptionally hard worker who had some great breaks is Bill Gates.

I'm sorry to break it to you but, yes 'Genius is simply an IQ or talent level'

His IQ is 160, if you use IQ to determine genius, I think he's pretty much definitely one.

[Ramone]

Plus he can do this

[Duke]

Can we all agree that Mifune's mum is transcendent

[skalpel]

By definition, genius means exceptionally intelligent or having exceptional natural ability. Therefore you argument is redundant I'm afraid. Messi is a genius, Mozart a genius and Shakespeare too.
Someone who might not be a genius but rather an exceptionally hard worker who had some great breaks is Bill Gates.

I'm sorry to break it to you but, yes 'Genius is simply an IQ or talent level'

His IQ is 160, if you use IQ to determine genius, I think he's pretty much definitely one.

Plus, if genius is simply a talent level, it is surely proven that Bill Gates is exceptionally talented - in fact more talented than anybody else in the world right now - at making himself rich.

I think genius is always going to be an arbitrary term. Personally I'm not keen on the word genius as a bestowed title. Clearly there are people who are popularly given the title Genius whose abilities differ from each other. To say, "Lionel Messi is a genius, also Leonardo Da Vinci was a genius" leaves things pretty vague because clearly the two men are on different planes from each other (or perhaps you disagree with me, which would seem to further prove that the word is left to individual whim).

Genius feels more like something you can possess rather than something you can be. And for me, possessing genius involves innovating and mastering something in a way which is uniquely your own, showing keenness of imagination and complete technical ability. But more importantly I reckon it involves unveiling some new truth. For instance, if both the sciences and arts can be considered to be, in their own ways, organised systems of human curiosity, then those curious minds who employ imagination and ability in some unique way in order to unveil a new truth have demonstrated a possession of genius.

Toughie.

[Duke]

You write very well dazza.