Animal Testing

Should we use animals to test medication?

Yes, the life of humans is more important than an animals.
6
60%
Yes, but only for life threatening diseases, or seriously debilitating diseases.
3
30%
Yes but only for diseases we have no treatment for.
1
10%
No, all lives are equal
0
No votes
Let's use the loser of hippo vs tiger
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 10

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Animal Testing

Post by PTAO? » Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:36 pm

This one is for IWSST

Saw a post on Facebook defending the use of animals in light of this petition going around, so what are the thoughts of TF?
A necessary tool in the fight of mankind vs disease?
Or barbaric and with no place in our society?

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Re: Animal Testing

Post by Seagull » Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:53 pm

How much would medical science suffer if testing was pretty much stopped? Would it near enough grind any progress in medicines to a halt?

According to PETA (I know, I know):
Today—because experiments on animals are cruel, expensive, and generally inapplicable to humans—the world’s most forward-thinking scientists have moved on to develop and use methods for studying diseases and testing products that replace animals and are actually relevant to human health. These modern methods include sophisticated tests using human cells and tissues (also known as in vitro methods), advanced computer-modeling techniques (often referred to as in silico models), and studies with human volunteers. These and other non-animal methods are not hindered by species differences that make applying animal test results to humans difficult or impossible, and they usually take less time and money to complete.
http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used ... l-testing/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Animal Testing

Post by PTAO? » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:06 pm

Well you wouldn't be able to bring totally novel compounds to the table as you would have to do toxicity tests before hand. The risk of being hepatotoxic or causing kidney failure is high, and without putting it in a living thing you have no way of knowing of it will kill someone or not. Additionally you won't know for sure if it will even get to the right part of the body. Computer models can only show you so much. They are after all models based on our knowledge, which isn't complete.
You would also have to do a lot more human studies if you wanted to repurpose a drug, which would bring the cost right up meaning less potential drugs could get tested.
Testing on cells in a dish is great, and it's actually a requirement in medical discovery that if your experiment can be done in vitro, it is. It's a lot cheaper to do it this way too, so if you can, you do.
However as I already said, this can only tell you so much. Great for proof of concept, but it's the first step in a long process of drug development.

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Re: Animal Testing

Post by skalpel » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:24 pm

I'm really queasy and useless on this subject, in the same way I am with eating meat. I don't even like squishing insects, personally, it makes me feel rotten to hurt any living thing. But steak is delicious and animal testing is necessary. I'm not sure which option in the poll is for me, because I think it's necessary for more than just the direct research of specific diseases. It's from the study of how animals react under certain tests that we learn things we may not have anticipated before. But it is true that there are cases of animal testing being taken too far for frivolous reasons.

I think I probably ought to go for option one, but I don't like that I think this, so I'm not going to click it <grim>. Can I say it depends on the animal? I have my favourites.

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Re: Animal Testing

Post by PTAO? » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:28 pm

I should have added a "just not on cute animals" option.
I did consider bringing in the case of using animals to study testing for the sake of knowledge rather than directly in drug development, and also things like cosmetics, but didn't want to have any more poll options as it already has.

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Re: Animal Testing

Post by skalpel » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:38 pm

Yeah, the example that springs right to mind is neuroscience. I've a friend who is in research at Oxford and she's told me loads of interesting s*** about the uses of lab rats in exploring the brain. They're seldom hurt or killed either, apparently.

Regarding cuteness, I'm not sure if that's entirely it. I think it's the closer towards human-like sentience the queasier I get. I don't like monkey or ape testing at all, and would probably draw a line beneath there if I had to. Squirrels are cuter than proboscis monkeys, but I'd have a thousand squirrels in testing before old nosey gets probed.

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Re: Animal Testing

Post by PTAO? » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:47 pm

What do they work on? I have a friend there using rats to study navigation. We really know so little about how the brain works, we'd never be able to learn more without animals.
Unfortunatly monkeys and apes have the most to give us, especially in terms of neuroscience. Luckily for you they are so expensive most people can't afford to use it. I should probably use this opportunity to add that it's also a requirement that animal testing is restricted to the "lowest order" animal possible. If your experiment is possible in a fly, you can't use a rat. If it's possible in the rat, you can't use a monkey.

Also squirrels are not cute.

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Re: Animal Testing

Post by skalpel » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:01 pm

Yeah, good points. I didn't know about the lowest order thing, that's pretty interesting. Oh, and yeah squirrels aren't that cute, but let's not forget how ridiculous proboscis monkeys look <roll>.

She works on sensory deprivation, if that's what you mean. Particularly with blindness. I submitted myself for sensory deprivation experiment earlier in the year which would have been a two day thing being led around the place blindfolded <laugh>. I couldn't make it in the end <urgh>.

If you mean on what animals do they work, then I've not a clue besides rats and flies. She also said, like you, that monkeys are too expensive though.

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Re: Animal Testing

Post by PTAO? » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:26 pm

Yeah I was getting at the field, not animals <ok>
Was it just to be blindfolded you volunteered for? Or was it a full on, almost torture, isolation kind of thing?

This isn't a controversial debate at all <urgh>

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Re: Animal Testing

Post by Speedo » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:29 pm

Yeah I think this is a controversial debate among people who don't think s*** through. This forum's unusually high IQ (esp now Matthieu has been banned/disappeared) is kind of a buzzkill here.
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Re: Animal Testing

Post by skalpel » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:30 pm

Wait til Speedo gets here and sticks up for the animals rights to identify as human if they so choose <roll>.

I wanted isolation, and requested it, but apparently they don't do that. So it was blindfold and regular testing: doing spot the difference with musical sequences, being asked some standard questions etc. Stuff to test the other senses and general cognitive ability. A number of hours of it would be spent in the MRI scanner and the rest of it just in some room they had all done out. Then some weeks later I was to go back and do the same thing over again but without the blindfold.

edit: <laugh>. Speedo beat me to it. Sorry.

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Re: Animal Testing

Post by Speedo » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:39 pm

<laugh> <laugh>

I'm pro-animal testing for medical purposes, I'm not an idiot <disgrace>

Obviously, we are humans so we are evolutionarily programmed to think human life > other animal life. Also this is not wanton destruction, this this medical testing with a greater purpose. It would be vastly preferable if the animals didn't have to suffer, but if I have a choice between human and animal suffering, I will always choose animal. Unless the human in question is Piers Morgan.
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Re: Animal Testing

Post by Mifune » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:53 pm

I don't have anything to add here. So I will just say that I f***ing hate PETA.

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Re: Animal Testing

Post by Ramone » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:41 pm

If animals didn't want to be tested on they should have evolved better to fight us off <wenger>
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Re: Animal Testing

Post by PTAO? » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:02 am

What about dogs?

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Re: Animal Testing

Post by Ramone » Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:48 am

Pretty Terrible Attacking Options wrote:What about dogs?
What about dogs? They still get tested on don't they? They are clearly inferior to us.
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Re: Animal Testing

Post by PTAO? » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:09 pm

TrinLaden wrote:
Pretty Terrible Attacking Options wrote:What about dogs?
What about dogs? They still get tested on don't they? They are clearly inferior to us.
Yeah I was pretty drunk, I think I was trying to say are people cool with testing on dogs, because they aren't with eating them

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Re: Animal Testing

Post by Ramone » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:30 pm

Pretty Terrible Attacking Options wrote:
TrinLaden wrote:
What about dogs? They still get tested on don't they? They are clearly inferior to us.
Yeah I was pretty drunk, I think I was trying to say are people cool with testing on dogs, because they aren't with eating them
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Re: Animal Testing

Post by dls » Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:40 pm

Somebody on facebook the other day put a post saying why are we testing on animals when there are thousands of rapists and paedophiles in prison we could be testing on instead <laugh>

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Re: Animal Testing

Post by Dr. Bishop » Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:44 pm

dls wrote:Somebody on facebook the other day put a post saying why are we testing on animals when there are thousands of rapists and paedophiles in prison we could be testing on instead <laugh>
They have a point. Plus, if there are a large number of deaths it will reduce cost to the taxpayer, whilst also bringing overpopulation down.

I can't think of a negative to the whole thing.


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