Brexit

#Referendum

Poll ended at Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:10 pm

#Brexit
5
26%
#Bremain
14
74%
 
Total votes: 19

User avatar
TJR
10 Champs Gold
10 Champs Gold
Posts: 11261
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:41 pm
Location: Antwerp / Newcastle
Contact:

Re: Brexit

Post by TJR » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:05 am

Likely we'll be having a general election on 13th October. With the Tories in turmoil and Labour even worse it'll certainly be interesting to see how it goes. I fear UKIP may even gain some seats. Lib Dems have said they'll block Brexit should they get into power, maybe that will lead to a resurgence for them.

I have absolutely no idea who I'd vote for. Normally I'd go Labour but they aren't in any shape to be running a country at the minute. Wouldn't consider Tories and definitely wouldn't consider UKIP. Probably going to have to be Green Party or Lib Dems.

User avatar
Ol' Dirty Bas Dost
Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Posts: 1045
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:52 am

Re: Brexit

Post by Ol' Dirty Bas Dost » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:36 pm

I'll vote Labour or Lib Dems depending on who's leading Labour at the time. I think Andy Burnham could do the job, being a former Blairite Corbyn loyalist with a mind of his own. He's won a lot of respect in the areas that will matter come the election (northern England) for his response to the Hillsborough enquiry.

If they stick with Corbyn or another London-based politician, I fear a big swing to UKIP between Nottingham and the Scottish border. Labour could be down to 60 seats. If that's looking likely and the local polling is good, I'll be voting Lib Dem since Tim Farron seems a solid bloke and is friendly to the EU. Could see a Lib-Lab coalition being in the best interests of the country.

Edit: Do you think the pound's current state will have some influence over where we're looking to buy players from this window?

User avatar
overseasTOON
Much Ado About Blogging
Much Ado About Blogging
Posts: 19002
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:53 am
Location: Location: Location

Re: Brexit

Post by overseasTOON » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:57 pm

Ol' Dirty Bas Dost wrote:I'll vote Labour or Lib Dems depending on who's leading Labour at the time. I think Andy Burnham could do the job, being a former Blairite Corbyn loyalist with a mind of his own. He's won a lot of respect in the areas that will matter come the election (northern England) for his response to the Hillsborough enquiry.

If they stick with Corbyn or another London-based politician, I fear a big swing to UKIP between Nottingham and the Scottish border. Labour could be down to 60 seats. If that's looking likely and the local polling is good, I'll be voting Lib Dem since Tim Farron seems a solid bloke and is friendly to the EU. Could see a Lib-Lab coalition being in the best interests of the country.

Edit: Do you think the pound's current state will have some influence over where we're looking to buy players from this window?
I don't think the club will be too concerned about the current state of the pound and let that influence where we buy from. Sure the value has dropped against the Euro but not to the extent that a player would now be 1.5 to 2 times the value of a few weeks back.

User avatar
Ol' Dirty Bas Dost
Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Posts: 1045
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:52 am

Re: Brexit

Post by Ol' Dirty Bas Dost » Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:25 pm

What do you think would happen if the bulk of the rebel Labour MPs merged with the Lib Dems to form an LDLP (Liberal Democratic Labour Party)? Could that party compete with the Tories at the next election?

User avatar
ALF
Sleep is for Pussies
Sleep is for Pussies
Posts: 20242
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Down Sowf

Re: Brexit

Post by ALF » Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:50 pm

UKIP are going to gain a f*** load of seats <erk>

User avatar
Colback's Orange Tufts
Ancient Forum Relic
Ancient Forum Relic
Posts: 10482
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm
Location: Near the ducks

Re: Brexit

Post by Colback's Orange Tufts » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:18 am

Ol' Dirty Bas Dost wrote:What do you think would happen if the bulk of the rebel Labour MPs merged with the Lib Dems to form an LDLP (Liberal Democratic Labour Party)? Could that party compete with the Tories at the next election?
As someone who has voted for both, I'd like that. But Trident would be a huge stumbling block. its the first thing Corbyn and the PLP fell out over and the Lib Dems (much to my frustration) aren't keen.
I guess leadership is an issue, Dems like Farron but have much fewer MPs
Sharing articles no-one reads since 2012

User avatar
skalpel
Sleep is for Pussies
Sleep is for Pussies
Posts: 17101
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:36 pm
Location: Somerset

Re: Brexit

Post by skalpel » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:46 am

The LibDems running a GE campaign based on the exploitation of people's anger in the wake of Brexit reeks of the same kind of dumb opportunism that will see UKIP sweep up seats as well. Get power, worry about consequences later has apparently been the LibDem motto for the last decade. It seems pretty obvious that if Brexiters who voted based on immigration control and general political control end up seeing either of those promises broken, then there'll be such a violent shift to UKIP that it will probably be generations before their trust can be regained. So many of the same people voted out because of a mistrust of Westminster, so if they see the Tories making murmurs about the single market, Farron saying he's going to do everything he can to minimise the result, and Labour an unelectable mess with no idea what they're even for anymore, then who else will the vote for except the party telling them that Westminister still doesn't want to heed their demands?

User avatar
Perch's First Touch
Avoids Death. Until it Matters.
Avoids Death. Until it Matters.
Posts: 7893
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:04 am

Re: Brexit

Post by Perch's First Touch » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:17 am

skalpel wrote:The LibDems running a GE campaign based on the exploitation of people's anger in the wake of Brexit reeks of the same kind of dumb opportunism that will see UKIP sweep up seats as well. Get power, worry about consequences later has apparently been the LibDem motto for the last decade. It seems pretty obvious that if Brexiters who voted based on immigration control and general political control end up seeing either of those promises broken, then there'll be such a violent shift to UKIP that it will probably be generations before their trust can be regained. So many of the same people voted out because of a mistrust of Westminster, so if they see the Tories making murmurs about the single market, Farron saying he's going to do everything he can to minimise the result, and Labour an unelectable mess with no idea what they're even for anymore, then who else will the vote for except the party telling them that Westminister still doesn't want to heed their demands?
Yup. It's just an utter s*** show.
formerly known as Bigi Bigi Bigi Can't You See & IMTE

User avatar
Speedo
Not at 66-1, f*** that.
Not at 66-1, f*** that.
Posts: 8536
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:40 pm
Location: London

Re: Brexit

Post by Speedo » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:28 am

skalpel wrote:The LibDems running a GE campaign based on the exploitation of people's anger in the wake of Brexit reeks of the same kind of dumb opportunism that will see UKIP sweep up seats as well. Get power, worry about consequences later has apparently been the LibDem motto for the last decade. It seems pretty obvious that if Brexiters who voted based on immigration control and general political control end up seeing either of those promises broken, then there'll be such a violent shift to UKIP that it will probably be generations before their trust can be regained. So many of the same people voted out because of a mistrust of Westminster, so if they see the Tories making murmurs about the single market, Farron saying he's going to do everything he can to minimise the result, and Labour an unelectable mess with no idea what they're even for anymore, then who else will the vote for except the party telling them that Westminister still doesn't want to heed their demands?
This is based on the assumption that there isn't a large amount of buyers' remorse on the part of voters following the referendum... It's my hope hat the Labour party splits between the Corbynista left and the pro-Europe centre party, which would form an electoral pact with the Lib Dems and stand on a pro-Europe ticket.

With regards to "Brexiters who voted based on immigration control and general political control end up seeing either of those promises broken"... those promises have already been broken. Boris, Gove, and Farage lied about the control we would gain, and it's already apparent. This is why this is such a f***ed up situation - the entire Brexit campaign was based on lies, and now the Government has a mandate to implement something that is literally impossible to implement - namely, continued economic prosperity, including access to the single market, without any of the concessions about immigration etc.
I had the first custom w***

User avatar
Ol' Dirty Bas Dost
Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Posts: 1045
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:52 am

Re: Brexit

Post by Ol' Dirty Bas Dost » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:52 am

Whatever happens on the left, I feel pretty confident calling the Tory leadership for Theresa May. Ask 150,000 Tory members whether they want the buffoon who broke every promise he made, or the Iron Lady 2.0 to lead them, and it's a no-brainer. Add to that Gove now running against Johnson, and it's evident there's no trust between the 2 leading lights for Brexit in the Tory party. It'll be May, or I'll get my arse out in Fenwicks window. Yeah I went there.

User avatar
Colback's Orange Tufts
Ancient Forum Relic
Ancient Forum Relic
Posts: 10482
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm
Location: Near the ducks

Re: Brexit

Post by Colback's Orange Tufts » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:57 am

Ol' Dirty Bas Dost wrote:Whatever happens on the left, I feel pretty confident calling the Tory leadership for Theresa May. Ask 150,000 Tory members whether they want the buffoon who broke every promise he made, or the Iron Lady 2.0 to lead them, and it's a no-brainer. Add to that Gove now running against Johnson, and it's evident there's no trust between the 2 leading lights for Brexit in the Tory party. It'll be May, or I'll get my arse out in Fenwicks window. Yeah I went there.
That means we make it even harder for working immigrants, she's said Brexit means controlling borders and the home office has been harsh on non-EU under her.
It's a shame the Crabb-Javid ticket will get forgotten, a true blue collar Tory double team might be decent.

On the other hand, if we get May and Eagle for Labour that'll be pretty historic (alongside three main female leaders in Scotland)
Sharing articles no-one reads since 2012

User avatar
Perch's First Touch
Avoids Death. Until it Matters.
Avoids Death. Until it Matters.
Posts: 7893
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:04 am

Re: Brexit

Post by Perch's First Touch » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:07 am

Cisse's Overheating Torso wrote:
Ol' Dirty Bas Dost wrote:Whatever happens on the left, I feel pretty confident calling the Tory leadership for Theresa May. Ask 150,000 Tory members whether they want the buffoon who broke every promise he made, or the Iron Lady 2.0 to lead them, and it's a no-brainer. Add to that Gove now running against Johnson, and it's evident there's no trust between the 2 leading lights for Brexit in the Tory party. It'll be May, or I'll get my arse out in Fenwicks window. Yeah I went there.
That means we make it even harder for working immigrants, she's said Brexit means controlling borders and the home office has been harsh on non-EU under her.
It's a shame the Crabb-Javid ticket will get forgotten, a true blue collar Tory double team might be decent.

On the other hand, if we get May and Eagle for Labour that'll be pretty historic (alongside three main female leaders in Scotland)
Crabbs history regarding LGBT rights makes for horrifying reading though.

I don't want more Tory governments <neg>
formerly known as Bigi Bigi Bigi Can't You See & IMTE

User avatar
Colback's Orange Tufts
Ancient Forum Relic
Ancient Forum Relic
Posts: 10482
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm
Location: Near the ducks

Re: Brexit

Post by Colback's Orange Tufts » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:10 am

Dumm & Doumbia wrote:
Cisse's Overheating Torso wrote:
That means we make it even harder for working immigrants, she's said Brexit means controlling borders and the home office has been harsh on non-EU under her.
It's a shame the Crabb-Javid ticket will get forgotten, a true blue collar Tory double team might be decent.

On the other hand, if we get May and Eagle for Labour that'll be pretty historic (alongside three main female leaders in Scotland)
Crabbs history regarding LGBT rights makes for horrifying reading though.

I don't want more Tory governments <neg>
Can't defend his vote on equal marriage (neither does he, says he's now pleased it passed). there's also alot of hearsay and outright lies about him on this,ie memes claiming he supports gay cures when he says he's against them.

The way I see it, if someone fesses up to a mistake, I respect that. It's best to have politicians who are willing to change views based on evidence and public opinion
Sharing articles no-one reads since 2012

User avatar
Ol' Dirty Bas Dost
Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Posts: 1045
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:52 am

Re: Brexit

Post by Ol' Dirty Bas Dost » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:19 am

May's just said in her press conference that she wouldn't pursue leaving the ECHR as there's no majority desire for it in the Commons; that's big news and will make her a lot more palatable to party moderates. She came across well I have to say.

User avatar
Perch's First Touch
Avoids Death. Until it Matters.
Avoids Death. Until it Matters.
Posts: 7893
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:04 am

Re: Brexit

Post by Perch's First Touch » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:27 am

I don't want May , she's been overseeing the systematic privatisation of the police force to a company her husband has a major role in , G4S.
Gove has destroyed the education system singlehandedly.


Wherever you look there is no hope. The future f***ing terrifies me.
formerly known as Bigi Bigi Bigi Can't You See & IMTE

User avatar
Colback's Orange Tufts
Ancient Forum Relic
Ancient Forum Relic
Posts: 10482
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm
Location: Near the ducks

Re: Brexit

Post by Colback's Orange Tufts » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:30 am

Dumm & Doumbia wrote:I don't want May , she's been overseeing the systematic privatisation of the police force to a company her husband has a major role in , G4S.
Gove has destroyed the education system singlehandedly.


Wherever you look there is no hope. The future f***ing terrifies me.
Meh, most of the country runs despite what PMs do, easy to overestimate the impact of a leader. It's the ministers and civil service who make a big difference. I think May's quite conservative too (i.e doesn't like change).

It'd be nice to have a decent opposition though, with policies not just an anti-austerity slogan
Sharing articles no-one reads since 2012

User avatar
skalpel
Sleep is for Pussies
Sleep is for Pussies
Posts: 17101
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:36 pm
Location: Somerset

Re: Brexit

Post by skalpel » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:44 am

Speedo wrote:
skalpel wrote:The LibDems running a GE campaign based on the exploitation of people's anger in the wake of Brexit reeks of the same kind of dumb opportunism that will see UKIP sweep up seats as well. Get power, worry about consequences later has apparently been the LibDem motto for the last decade. It seems pretty obvious that if Brexiters who voted based on immigration control and general political control end up seeing either of those promises broken, then there'll be such a violent shift to UKIP that it will probably be generations before their trust can be regained. So many of the same people voted out because of a mistrust of Westminster, so if they see the Tories making murmurs about the single market, Farron saying he's going to do everything he can to minimise the result, and Labour an unelectable mess with no idea what they're even for anymore, then who else will the vote for except the party telling them that Westminister still doesn't want to heed their demands?
This is based on the assumption that there isn't a large amount of buyers' remorse on the part of voters following the referendum... It's my hope hat the Labour party splits between the Corbynista left and the pro-Europe centre party, which would form an electoral pact with the Lib Dems and stand on a pro-Europe ticket.
Which has no guarantee of winning and a good chance of motivating a UKIP-Tory coalition.
Speedo wrote:With regards to "Brexiters who voted based on immigration control and general political control end up seeing either of those promises broken"... those promises have already been broken. Boris, Gove, and Farage lied about the control we would gain, and it's already apparent. This is why this is such a f***ed up situation - the entire Brexit campaign was based on lies, and now the Government has a mandate to implement something that is literally impossible to implement - namely, continued economic prosperity, including access to the single market, without any of the concessions about immigration etc.
To the Brexiters we're talking about - those capable of causing a huge swing to UKIP - the principle of leaving and all the autonomy and sense of people power that comes with that is more important than the details. They wanted three things: 1. Less immigration, 2. No continental suits making decisions for their country that they feel unable to influence, and 3. To finally stick it to the establishment, and stick it to them hard. So, for them, what promises have been broken here so far? They won the vote, and the establishment is shitting its trousers.

The entire Brexit campaign wasn't based on lies, it involved lies and was based on untold truths and the puffing of the importance of principle over practice. This is a distinction worth making. Anybody who relied solely on the campaign for their information wasn't told it was going to be a huge gamble with the country's economy, and that it would mean a huge upheaval of how the country works without a guarantee that the new way would work out any better. Nor were they told that in the event that they succeeded there would be desperate twists and turns to renege on as many promises as possible because of the risk. But even then, the sort of voter who relied solely on the campaigns for information strikes me as the sort of voter who feels he don't have a dog in the economic race anyway and so doesn't give a s*** about "The Economy"; the sort of person who thinks like Ken Walker from Sunderland, who is quoted in the NYT as having said: "I don't have any money in the stock market, so what's it to me?" Any impact that filters down to him can be easily blamed on something else by UKIP. It won't stop their rise.

The problems goes way deeper and further back in time than the Brexit campaign. It almost doesn't even matter what they said. The fact that there was a campaign and the option to vote Brexit provided an outlet for years of bubbling frustration and anti-establishment sentiment.

User avatar
Ol' Dirty Bas Dost
Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Posts: 1045
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:52 am

Re: Brexit

Post by Ol' Dirty Bas Dost » Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:02 am

That "what's it to me" attitude really riles me. Why do you think your weekly shop's gone up? Why is your relative at the Nissan plant facing redundancy? The economy is a fairly abstract concept, for sure, but when people wilfully refuse to connect it to real life consequences, that just baffles me.

User avatar
skalpel
Sleep is for Pussies
Sleep is for Pussies
Posts: 17101
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:36 pm
Location: Somerset

Re: Brexit

Post by skalpel » Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:12 am

Ol' Dirty Bas Dost wrote:That "what's it to me" attitude really riles me. Why do you think your weekly shop's gone up? Why is your relative at the Nissan plant facing redundancy? The economy is a fairly abstract concept, for sure, but when people wilfully refuse to connect it to real life consequences, that just baffles me.
I think its because "The Economy" has become a particular sort of abstract concept to some people which is basically:

- Greedy Bankers
- People in expensive suits in London
- People who have loads of property
- Something that establishment politicians are always worried or lying about
- Something difficult to understand

None of these things are welcome. And so if any banker, or person in an expensive suit in London, or person with lots of property, or establishment politician is telling them that there'll be a huge loss of money, they look at their bank balance and then they look at their concept of The Economy, and then they think "f***ed if I care".

User avatar
Colback's Orange Tufts
Ancient Forum Relic
Ancient Forum Relic
Posts: 10482
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm
Location: Near the ducks

Re: Brexit

Post by Colback's Orange Tufts » Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:19 am

skalpel wrote:
Ol' Dirty Bas Dost wrote:That "what's it to me" attitude really riles me. Why do you think your weekly shop's gone up? Why is your relative at the Nissan plant facing redundancy? The economy is a fairly abstract concept, for sure, but when people wilfully refuse to connect it to real life consequences, that just baffles me.
I think its because "The Economy" has become a particular sort of abstract concept to some people which is basically:

- Greedy Bankers
- People in expensive suits in London
- People who have loads of property
- Something that establishment politicians are always worried or lying about
- Something difficult to understand

None of these things are welcome. And so if any banker, or person in an expensive suit in London, or person with lots of property, or establishment politician is telling them that there'll be a huge loss of money, they look at their bank balance and then they look at their concept of The Economy, and then they think "f***ed if I care".
Yeah don't realise the effect it has on them.
The amount of well educated people I know who say they don't care about the stock market because it has no effect on them, don't think about pensions, insurance etc
Sharing articles no-one reads since 2012

Post Reply