Which series to watch
Re: Which series to watch
Bloodline on Netflix. Ben Mendelsohn is class in it.
formerly known as Bigi Bigi Bigi Can't You See & IMTE
Re: Which series to watch
Breaking Bad would be my recommendation but The Wire is by far the greatest TV show ever made and always will be, but it's kind of esoteric and (and I don't care how conceited this is) simply above those who criticise it. I wouldn't recommend it because I think many people would start watching, deem it boring and choose to watch something else instead, I did the first two times I attempted to watch it. Most of what I've watched since The Wire I find almost patronisingly simple compared to it
Edit: I voted for The Wire because the poll question was slightly different to thread subject.
Edit: I voted for The Wire because the poll question was slightly different to thread subject.
Re: Which series to watch
I recently watched the first two series but that was all I had downloaded and our internet's too s**** to download any more.Bodacious Benny wrote:I'm onto series 2 of Mad Men which I'm enjoying so far.
Re: Which series to watch
This. Hilariously immune to rebuttal as well.asbo wrote:The Wire is by far the greatest TV show ever made and always will be, but it's kind of esoteric and (and I don't care how conceited this is) simply above those who criticise it.
Re: Which series to watch
I find people who think The Wire is the best TV show ever tend to prefer story driven shows rather than character driven shows.
Personally I prefer character driven shows like Mad Men and The Sopranos because they are more interesting and they have more rewatch value. Story driven shows like The Wire I only really watch once then that's it.
Personally I prefer character driven shows like Mad Men and The Sopranos because they are more interesting and they have more rewatch value. Story driven shows like The Wire I only really watch once then that's it.
Re: Which series to watch
Also The Walking Dead is complete s*** and vies with Game of Thrones as most overrated TV show ever.
Re: Which series to watch
The Shield > The Wire
Re: Which series to watch
Mifune wrote:Also The Walking Dead is complete s*** and vies with Game of Thrones as most overrated TV show ever.
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Re: Which series to watch
Mrs Benny watches GoT but I only ever look up when boobs are on show.
I'm the scumbag outlaw. You're the pillar of justice. Neither of us like looking at ourselves in the mirror. Do we have a deal?
Re: Which series to watch
Bit of an odd hypothesis imo. To start with, Frank Sobotka is probably the most complete tragic hero in television history. His character is at least half the reason why I rate the show so highly. He is a masterpiece. The Avon and Stringer plot in the third season is rooted in two conflicting character developments, and I'm sure I remember almost all of season 4 being low on story, high on character.Mifune wrote:I find people who think The Wire is the best TV show ever tend to prefer story driven shows rather than character driven shows.
Personally I prefer character driven shows like Mad Men and The Sopranos because they are more interesting and they have more rewatch value. Story driven shows like The Wire I only really watch once then that's it.
To be honest, the only thin-ish characters are the cops, and even then they're not exactly one dimensional (save for McNulty).
Re: Which series to watch
What I meant with story/character driven was the overriding thing that drives the show. Story driven shows still have character development and character driven shows still have story arcs. But with The Sopranos the thing that drives the show is the character of Tony Soprano, that what the show grows around. While The Wire does have character development and stuff it is the story arcs of the cases that the show is worked around.skalpel wrote:Bit of an odd hypothesis imo. To start with, Frank Sobotka is probably the most complete tragic hero in television history. His character is at least half the reason why I rate the show so highly. He is a masterpiece. The Avon and Stringer plot in the third season is rooted in two conflicting character developments, and I'm sure I remember almost all of season 4 being low on story, high on character.Mifune wrote:I find people who think The Wire is the best TV show ever tend to prefer story driven shows rather than character driven shows.
Personally I prefer character driven shows like Mad Men and The Sopranos because they are more interesting and they have more rewatch value. Story driven shows like The Wire I only really watch once then that's it.
To be honest, the only thin-ish characters are the cops, and even then they're not exactly one dimensional (save for McNulty).
Re: Which series to watch
The most overrated show on television as Duke has already said is Big Bang Theory.
formerly known as Bigi Bigi Bigi Can't You See & IMTE
Re: Which series to watch
Of course. But I'm arguing that the second season (the best season) of the Wire is basically a character driven morality tale with everything orbiting one complex character whose attributes and decisions impact the story like pond ripples. It could even be taken as a self contained miniseries which would undoubtedly be viewed as a character study. Anybody who, as you say, finds character driven fiction more interesting than plot driven (I count myself as one) would not be let down by The Wire.Mifune wrote:What I meant with story/character driven was the overriding thing that drives the show. Story driven shows still have character development and character driven shows still have story arcs.skalpel wrote:
Bit of an odd hypothesis imo. To start with, Frank Sobotka is probably the most complete tragic hero in television history. His character is at least half the reason why I rate the show so highly. He is a masterpiece. The Avon and Stringer plot in the third season is rooted in two conflicting character developments, and I'm sure I remember almost all of season 4 being low on story, high on character.
To be honest, the only thin-ish characters are the cops, and even then they're not exactly one dimensional (save for McNulty).
Edit- It's a similar deal with the third season as well: character drives the plot rather than the other way about. In this case it's basically an inner conflict split between two characters, where only one world outlook can possibly exist, putting both characters squarely against eachother and generating events from there.
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Re: Which series to watch
Spoken like someone who has seen about an hour of itMifune wrote:Also The Walking Dead is complete s*** and vies with Game of Thrones as most overrated TV show ever.
I dunno
Re: Which series to watch
I've seen every episode of it, d*******.Duke wrote:Spoken like someone who has seen about an hour of itMifune wrote:Also The Walking Dead is complete s*** and vies with Game of Thrones as most overrated TV show ever.
Re: Which series to watch
Story is always going to involve characters. The difference for me personally is that in shows like The Wire even if there is character stuff in them it is created by the story rather than in shows like The Sopranos where the story is created by the character.skalpel wrote:Of course. But I'm arguing that the second season (the best season) of the Wire is basically a character driven morality tale with everything orbiting one complex character whose attributes and decisions impact the story like pond ripples. It could even be taken as a self contained miniseries which would undoubtedly be viewed as a character study. Anybody who, as you say, finds character driven fiction more interesting than plot driven (I count myself as one) would not be let down by The Wire.Mifune wrote:
What I meant with story/character driven was the overriding thing that drives the show. Story driven shows still have character development and character driven shows still have story arcs.
Edit- It's a similar deal with the third season as well: character drives the plot rather than the other way about. In this case it's basically an inner conflict split between two characters, where only one world outlook can possibly exist, putting both characters squarely against eachother and generating events from there.
Re: Which series to watch
But skalpel just gave two examples of where the plot was being heavily driven by the characters, maybe you managed to miss all the scenes involving Barksdale, Bell and Sobotka when you watched it .Mifune wrote:Story is always going to involve characters. The difference for me personally is that in shows like The Wire even if there is character stuff in them it is created by the story rather than in shows like The Sopranos where the story is created by the character.skalpel wrote:
Of course. But I'm arguing that the second season (the best season) of the Wire is basically a character driven morality tale with everything orbiting one complex character whose attributes and decisions impact the story like pond ripples. It could even be taken as a self contained miniseries which would undoubtedly be viewed as a character study. Anybody who, as you say, finds character driven fiction more interesting than plot driven (I count myself as one) would not be let down by The Wire.
Edit- It's a similar deal with the third season as well: character drives the plot rather than the other way about. In this case it's basically an inner conflict split between two characters, where only one world outlook can possibly exist, putting both characters squarely against eachother and generating events from there.
SpoilerShow
The Wire is so grand in scope that what is plot-driven for some characters is character-driven by others; Frank Sobotka's storyline is a great example of this: under pressure from the union he represents to revive the shipping industry in Baltimore and stymied by political corruption he involves himself with The Greek's organised crime network (which has huge repercussions later in the series because it's The Greek's supply of higher quality drugs which gives Prop Joe an advantage over the Barksdale organisation, forcing Stringer to join the co-op and causing cracks in the relationship between Bell and Barksdale). The cops' storylines are driven by Sobotka's; first with the discovery of a shipping container full of dead hookers and then as they begin to suspect his port as being entry point for the city's drugs, and at the same time scrutiny on the shipyard is being fuelled by a personal grudge Valchek has toward Sobotka. All the while he's having to deal with the actions of his idiot son who then gets arrested for murdering one of the Greeks. Everything about that season goes through Frank Sobotka, he could be considered a major player whose actions and decisions are affecting everyone in the city, or he could be seen as little more than a pawn being manipulated by circumstances which have escalated far beyond what he could control, either way the season is driven by him; by his decisions and his reactions to situations.
Re: Which series to watch
Mifune wrote:Story is always going to involve characters. The difference for me personally is that in shows like The Wire even if there is character stuff in them it is created by the story rather than in shows like The Sopranos where the story is created by the character.
skalpel wrote:character drives the plot rather than the other way about
Yes, we both know the difference between character driven and plot driven.skalpel wrote:character driven morality tale with everything orbiting one complex character whose attributes and decisions impact the story like pond ripples
But here's what I'm saying: when you cut through to it, the second season of the Wire is basically a modern Faust. Frank is conflicted between justice and morality, literally the entire story unfolds from there and it progresses almost exclusively due to his decisions, motivations, etc. He, his decisions, and his state of mind are the central part of the season's story, to the extent that parts of the story which impact other apparently isolated characters all ultimately boil down to him in cause and effect.
The only difference between The Wire's second season and the Sopranos when we're talking character driven vs plot driven is that it is more immediately obvious in the Sopranos, not in the least because the character in question is the title character and the existence of his inner conflicts are made clear to the audience by his need of a psychiatrist. They're both dependent on the thoughts, needs, conflicts, ideas, motivations blah blah, of one central figure.
Edit - Didn't refresh after writing this earlier, and didn't see AbGlo's post .
Re: Which series to watch
I think we are at crossed purposes here.
In The Wire different aspects of society are looked at. Throughout a season certain social structures are examined through characters eg. with Frank it is moral integrity and corruption. So the characters are used to explore it, rather than drive what the show talks about themselves.
Morality is a theme in Mad Men too but it is used to look at a character rather than like in the wire where characters are used to look at morality as a story.
Obviously this isn't binary and there are parts of both in most TV shows. Just taking about the overall structure of the shows.
In The Wire different aspects of society are looked at. Throughout a season certain social structures are examined through characters eg. with Frank it is moral integrity and corruption. So the characters are used to explore it, rather than drive what the show talks about themselves.
Morality is a theme in Mad Men too but it is used to look at a character rather than like in the wire where characters are used to look at morality as a story.
Obviously this isn't binary and there are parts of both in most TV shows. Just taking about the overall structure of the shows.